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Age 65 2007

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FoxHunter

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 4, 2002
Posts
679
FREEDOM TO FLY ACT-TO END AGE DISCRIMINATION FOR COMMERCIAL AIRLINE PILOTS
Senator James Inhofe
January 4, 2007

Mr. INHOFE. Mr. President, I rise today, as an experienced pilot over age 60, along with my colleagues, Senator Stevens, Senator Lieberman and Senator Feingold, to once again introduce a bill that will help end age discrimination among commercial airline pilots. Our bill will abolish the Federal Aviation Administration’s (FAA) arcane Age 60 Rule—a regulation that has unjustly forced the retirement of airline pilots the day they turn 60 for more than 45 years.

Our bipartisan bill called the “Freedom to Fly Act” would replace the dated FAA rule with a new international standard adopted this past November by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) which allows pilots to fly to 65 as long as the copilot is under 60.

Since the adoption of the ICAO standard in November of this year, foreign pilots have been flying and working in U.S. Airspace under this new standard up to 65 years of age—a privilege the FAA has not been willing to grant to American pilots flying the same aircraft in the same airspace.

This bill may seem familiar; I have introduced similar legislation in the past two Congresses and I am dedicated to ensuring its passage this year. And it has never been more urgent.

Mr. President, we cannot continue to allow our FAA to force the retirement of America’s most experienced commercial pilots at the ripe young age of 60 while they say to their counterparts flying for foreign flags “Welcome to our airspace.

Many of these great American pilots are veterans who have served our country and the flying public for decades. Many of them have suffered wage concessions and lost their pensions as the airline industry has faced hard times and bankruptcies. But these American pilots are not asking for a handout.

They are just saying to the FAA; “Give me the same right you granted our foreign counterparts with the stroke of a pen this November. Let us continue to fly, to work, to continue to contribute to the tax rolls for an additional 5 years.” We join them and echo their sentiments to Administrator Blakey. Mr.
President, as far as we are concerned, that is the least we can do for America’s pilots, who are considered the best and the safest pilots in the world.

Most nations have abolished mandatory age 60 retirement rules. Many countries, including Canada, Australia, and New Zealand have no upper age limit at all and consider an age-based retirement rule discriminatory. Sadly though, the United States was one of only four member countries of ICAO, along with Pakistan, Colombia, and France, to dissent to the ICAO decision to increase the retirement age to 65 last year.

The Age 60 Rule has no basis in science or safety and never has. The Aerospace Medical Association says that “There is insufficient medical evidence to support restriction of pilot certification based upon age alone.” Similarly, the American Association of Retired Persons, Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, the Seniors Coalition, and the National Institute of Aging of NIH all agree that the Age 60 Rule is simply age discrimination and should end. My colleagues and I agree.

When the rule was implemented in 1960 life expectancies were much lower—at just over 69 and a half years. Today they are much higher at over 77 years. The FAA’s own data shows that pilots over age 60 are as safe as, and in some cases safer than, their younger counterparts. In the process of adopting
the new international standard, ICAO studied more than 3,000 over-60 pilots from 64 nations, totaling at least 15,000 pilot-years of flying experience and found the risk of medical incapacitation “a risk so low that it can be safely disregarded.”

Furthermore, a recent economic study shows that allowing pilots to fly to age 65 would save almost $1 billion per year in added Social Security, Medicare, and tax payments and delayed Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation (PBGC) payments.

I am encouraged by the progress that has been made. In the 109th Congress, the Senate Commerce Committee reported the modified bill with the ICAO standard favorably and the Senate Transportation, Treasury, the Judiciary, Housing and Urban Development, and Related Agencies Appropriations Committee included a version of S. 65 in their bill. The FAA recently convened and Aviation Rulemaking Committee to study the issue of forced retirement. We have yet to see that report but it is our understanding the report was persuasive enough that the Administrator is considering a change in the rule now.

We are encouraged by that, but we also know that legislation will be needed to direct the FAA to pursue these changes in a timely manner and in a way that will protect companies and their unions from new lawsuits that might arise as a result of the changes. Our bill accomplishes that. Whether the FAA decides to change the rule on its own or not, Congress needs to do the right thing and pass S. 65 to fully ensure that our own American pilots have the same rights and privileges to work at least until Age 65 that were accorded to foreign pilots over the age of 60 this fall.

Mr., President, I urge the rest of my colleagues to support this important legislation and help us keep America’s most experienced pilots in the air.
 
Will the First class medical be more involved for those guys? Will there be any "strings" attached for the pilots that decide to fly past age 60?
 
But these American pilots are not asking for a handout.

Nope...their only asking to change the rules to suit them after a career of advancement provided by the mandatory retirement of pilots senior to them.
 
Blzr,

Probably not. If so, ALL of the pro-Age 65 pilots will cry discrimination and force everyone to undergo the same FAA - NASA astronaut style physical regardless of age.

It's pure discrimation you know.........
 
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isn't that a nice group of countries to be grouped with, France, etc.
 
Nope...their only asking to change the rules to suit them after a career of advancement provided by the mandatory retirement of pilots senior to them.

Oh shut up.... those senior pilot didn't have pensions and retirements yanked from them... or lose up to 60-70% of their pay. This isn't about money, it's about discrimination. I for one completely support it.
 
Somebody please explain to me how 65 is not discrimination and 60 is. It is still a fixed age that you MUST stop working. This whole issue is really a money thing and not discrimination, lets be honest and stop labeling it something it is not!
 
"Oh shut up", that's not very nice. I guess these old farts never paid any attention the histories of Pan Am, Braniff, Eastern or countless others. Maybe these guys should have saved more of their money instead of buying boats, harleys, oversized houses and having five wives. I have heard to many stories while flying with capts of how they mismanaged their lives. Do I feel bad for these guys who made a a ton of money and squandered it away? HELLL NO. Move along.
 
Oh shut up.... those senior pilot didn't have pensions and retirements yanked from them... or lose up to 60-70% of their pay. This isn't about money, it's about discrimination. I for one completely support it.

It is all about money, otherwise, why don't these captains go to 135 fractionals and start from scratch, oh yeah, they only want to keep flying as long as they are captains making at least 150K or better. AGE 60 should stay in place.

It is a shame people is pushing for this age 60 rule change, when we have hundreds if not thousands of pilots on furlough. It is all about the greedy selfish old pilots who care about nothing whatsoever but themselves.

ALPA spoke loud an clear, almost 7 out of 10 alpa members don't want to change the rule, DEM support ALPA, DEM control congress, end of story.
Hey by the way, thanks for reminding me to contact my local elected official, and remind them of how detrimental this rule could be with possible mergers, furlough pilots, etc...

You had your chance, retire now and move on, just like thousands of pilots have been doing the past... how many years?.......too many to remember.
 
Discrimination again....sheesh.
 
Somebody please explain to me how 65 is not discrimination and 60 is. It is still a fixed age that you MUST stop working.

Conversely, how is 61.153(a) also not age discrimination? That's the age limit for an ATP.

I think your point is quite salient, thor2j.
 
Conversely, how is 61.153(a) also not age discrimination? That's the age limit for an ATP.

I think your point is quite salient, thor2j.

The only current federal law that protects persons from age discrimination applies only for those age 40 or older. Sorry
 
It is all about money, otherwise, why don't these captains go to 135 fractionals and start from scratch, oh yeah, they only want to keep flying as long as they are captains making at least 150K or better. AGE 60 should stay in place.

.

I agree its about money. But it is for both sides of this debate. It is both unfair to force retirement at an age that has no reasonable evidence to support, and force other pilots waiting for upgrade that others did not have to wait for in the same way.

Saying that your opinion is not about the financial impact that it would have on yourself is nothing more than fooling yourself.

On a practical note, this is fundimental discrimination. The real question is whether or not its justified. And so far there has not been any real evidence to support the issue. Only individual opinion.
 
The only current federal law that protects persons from age discrimination applies only for those age 40 or older. Sorry

I went and checked it out and you are correct that with regards to the ADEA, age discrimination only applies to persons 40 years or older.

However, back to thor2j's point, raising the limit from 60 to 65 would still be tantamount to age discrimination, would it not?
 
I agree its about money. But it is for both sides of this debate. It is both unfair to force retirement at an age that has no reasonable evidence to support, and force other pilots waiting for upgrade that others did not have to wait for in the same way.

Saying that your opinion is not about the financial impact that it would have on yourself is nothing more than fooling yourself.

On a practical note, this is fundimental discrimination. The real question is whether or not its justified. And so far there has not been any real evidence to support the issue. Only individual opinion.

Are reasonable statements allowed on this board?? I'll have to check the code of conduct!;)

Seriously, well said. Well said.:beer:
 
Oh shut up.... those senior pilot didn't have pensions and retirements yanked from them... or lose up to 60-70% of their pay. This isn't about money, it's about discrimination. I for one completely support it.


Discrimination is not treating everyone equally. I would like to be treated to the same upgrade opportunities that these guys were treated to.

Fixing your perceived age discrimination just causes my perceived age discrimination.

PIPE
 
Yawn.

Sen Inouye will NEVER let this bill get out of committee. If it never gets out of committee, it never gets voted on. End of story.

Sen Inouye is the new Chairman of the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation.
 
I went and checked it out and you are correct that with regards to the ADEA, age discrimination only applies to persons 40 years or older.

However, back to thor2j's point, raising the limit from 60 to 65 would still be tantamount to age discrimination, would it not?

Canada, Australia, and New Zealand have no age limit because it has been ruled discrimination there. Here in the USA the age 60 was able to survive even though the EEOC said it was age discrimination. The Courts and many in Congress defered to the FAA because they are the experts. That all changed on November 23, 2006 when the ICAO standard changed and the FAA authorized all pilots to fly as Captain up to the age of 65.

Go back and read what the reporter for the WSJ wrote on December 11, 2006. He said the FAA has now already decided to change the rule Congress or not. They would like Congress to take the lead on the issue because they know that legal freight train running down the track is going to hurt the FAA, airline companies, and the pilot unions. If you read between the lines on the release about the legislation it will offer some protection to those parties.

You should also note that the legistation is being offered by both Republicans and Democrats. Almost one year ago a Legislative Assistant for a Senate Democrat made a comment that S.65 should have been introduced by a Democrat. Fixing problems with discrimination has always been a Democrat issue never Republican.

Those out there that expect the Democrats to block the change are in for a reality check.
 
blah blah blah blah...If it's so F'in safe, why is the other guy MANDATED to be under age 60? This is about the billion dollars saved in social security not the altruistic leanings of these D-bags.
 
Start writing boys and girls - I did.



Dear Senator Inouye-
As both an Air Force Reserve pilot and a commercial airline pilot, I am writing in opposition to Senator Inhofe's 4 January introduction of a proposal to raise the retirement age for US commercial airline pilots to 65.
As chairman of the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation, you are in a position to block this ill-conceived legislation.
There are two factors in play here:
1. Discrimination is not the issue. Almost every facet of aviation regulation has age limits assigned to it. There is a minimum age to fly solo, a minimum age to instruct, a minimum age to fly commercially, a minimum age for transport flying, etc., etc. Heck there are even age limits to drive a car, be a Senator, or be elected President. None of this is discriminatory, it is simply a fact of life that limits must be set. The age 60 limit is a tried and proven safety measure whose effectiveness can be borne out by looking at accident statistics in cars, airplanes, etc. Accident rates rise after 60.
2. This is simply a financial "grab" by a group of older pilots. These pilots themselves benefited by the retirement of their predecessors at age 60. Where were they then? They certainly were not beating down the doors of Congress to change the rule. Their complaints of lost pensions, SSA rules, and corporate bankruptcies have affected all of us - even those who are not approaching 60. Why then, should we penalize younger pilots and airlines in the interest of trying to "make whole" a very small group of pilots?
Your support in stopping this ill-conceived measure is greatly appreciated.




Cut, paste, improve, expound. Just do SOMETHING!!! We know that more of us are opposed than for the change. DO NOT BE LAZY. WRITE!!!!!!!

PIPE
 
Go back and read what the reporter for the WSJ wrote on December 11, 2006. He said the FAA has now already decided to change the rule Congress or not. They would like Congress to take the lead on the issue because they know that legal freight train running down the track is going to hurt the FAA, airline companies, and the pilot unions. If you read between the lines on the release about the legislation it will offer some protection to those parties.

You should also note that the legistation is being offered by both Republicans and Democrats. Almost one year ago a Legislative Assistant for a Senate Democrat made a comment that S.65 should have been introduced by a Democrat. Fixing problems with discrimination has always been a Democrat issue never Republican.

Those out there that expect the Democrats to block the change are in for a reality check.

Post a link to the WSJ article. The FAA has not stated that in public, so either you misinterpreted the article or the writer took journalistic liberties. Either way, the FAA has much larger issues to concern itself with than changing age 60.

If you think that the Democrats are going to change this, you are in for a reality check. If you look at the graphs in the link below, you'll see why it was stated that it would be best to be sponsored by a Dem. It's because bills sponsored by the minority party are much less likely to be enacted.

More than 90% of bills die in committee. Just like this one. End of story. http://www.congressionalbills.org/trends.html
 
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Cut, paste, improve, expound. Just do SOMETHING!!! We know that more of us are opposed than for the change. DO NOT BE LAZY. WRITE!!!!!!!

PIPE

Pipe,
I'll PM my list of FIers here with the best Sens to target once a certain Senate committee gets finalized. It's the last critical target until 2009.
 
I hope to be in a position to choose to "retire" at age 60. I do not agree with forced retirement at age 60.
I certainly do not agree with allowing foreign carriers to fly into, over and out of the US with over 60 pilots when our pilots are not afforded the same priviledges.
I don't have an answer as to why 65 is not also "age discrimination".
I certainly would support a more thorough medical for those past age 60 - purely in the interest of ensuring safety.

I find it ironic how some argue that the old guys are just "greedy" and standing in the way of the upgrade they have "earned". It seems to me that these folks are also motivated by financial considerations - getting that Captain pay as quick as possible.
 
I hope to be in a position to choose to "retire" at age 60. I do not agree with forced retirement at age 60.
I certainly do not agree with allowing foreign carriers to fly into, over and out of the US with over 60 pilots when our pilots are not afforded the same priviledges.
I don't have an answer as to why 65 is not also "age discrimination".
I certainly would support a more thorough medical for those past age 60 - purely in the interest of ensuring safety.

I find it ironic how some argue that the old guys are just "greedy" and standing in the way of the upgrade they have "earned". It seems to me that these folks are also motivated by financial considerations - getting that Captain pay as quick as possible.

We are motivated by the financial aspects as well as the safety aspects. At least we will admit that.

As far as discrimination, I would like the same opportunity they had. Seems pretty non-discriminatory to my pea-brain.

PIPE
 
We are motivated by the financial aspects as well as the safety aspects. At least we will admit that.

As far as discrimination, I would like the same opportunity they had. Seems pretty non-discriminatory to my pea-brain.

PIPE


I would like the same opportunity as my Canadian/ICAO brothers have...
 
I would like the same opportunity as my Canadian/ICAO brothers have...

Then move.

Nothing in our constitution guarantees you anything relative to other countries. Do you also want the right to be a murderous warlord, running a dictatorship? I believe you'll find some ICAO coutries that fit that description.

PIPE
 
Post a link to the WSJ article. The FAA has not stated that in public, so either you misinterpreted the article or the writer took journalistic liberties. Either way, the FAA has much larger issues to concern itself with than changing age 60.

FAA Set to Raise
Retirement Age
For Pilots to 65

By ANDY PASZTOR
December 11, 2006; Page A3

The Federal Aviation Administration, moving away from its longstanding policy that airline pilots must retire at age 60, wants to let them work in the cockpit as many as five years longer, according to industry and government officials.
The agency's emerging support for raising the mandatory retirement age to 65 comes as foreign airlines and regulators are adopting similar changes. If left unchanged, the current rules over the next decade will require thousands of passenger and cargo commercial pilots -- some projections total more than 30,0000 aviators -- to retire at age 60, regardless of their health, according to industry officials.
QUESTION OF THE DAY

http://online.wsj.com/public/resourc...2003210049.gif • Vote: What should be the mandatory retirement age for U.S. commercial jet pilots?


After repeatedly opposing similar efforts to change the rules, some U.S. airlines and pilots groups are beginning to soften their stances. Retaining larger numbers of senior pilots could help some airlines keep a lid on pension expenses and reduce training costs as younger pilots fill in behind retirees, while pension cutbacks at some carriers make working longer more important to some pilots. The 60-year age limit was a compromise between unions and airlines in the 1950s over economics and hasn't been changed since.
According to people familiar with the situation, FAA Administrator Marion Blakey is crafting the new position slowly but steadily. Before spelling it out publicly, she is expected to gauge the willingness of incoming Democratic leaders in Congress to take the lead in advocating such moves. Input from the White House and Department of Transportation could affect the agency's actions. Bills calling for the policy shift failed to pick up enough traction this year. A spokeswoman for Ms. Blakey said the industry can "expect a decision relatively soon."
Finalizing new regulations could take 18 months or more, but FAA lawyers are mulling over whether to apply the new standard to currently retired pilots between 60 and 65, according to one person familiar with the process. Seniority rules could make it extremely difficult to make any change retroactive.
The FAA's apparent change of heart is influenced by the current tight market globally for pilots as well as the lack of recent scientific data demonstrating any clear-cut erosion of safety from extending the careers of pilots, according to one person familiar with the matter. In addition, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission concluded the 60-year age limit is discriminatory.
Keeping the age limit at 60 is becoming more difficult to defend, following a move by the International Civil Aviation Organization, a United Nations agency that sets nonbinding global safety standards, to raise retirement ages at airlines world-wide.
ICAO said last month airline pilots could safely stay behind the controls until they turn 65, as long as the other pilot in the same cockpit is younger than 60. Even before that, a few foreign carriers were flying into and out of U.S. airports with copilots older than age 60.
Proponents of change see pressure building. "If Congress fails to act in the next three months, the FAA will be prepared to go to rulemaking" anyway, said Gary Cottingham, a retired US Airways Group Inc. pilot spearheading a group called Airline Pilots Against Age Discrimination.
An FAA-sponsored study group set up to clarify safety and economic issues didn't make specific recommendations in a recent report.
A spokesman for the Air Line Pilots Association, the pilots union that has opposed changes on safety grounds, said "changing the age is a lot more complex than most [people] would realize, especially when it comes to scheduling crews" for long-distance or international flying.
The union recognizes political momentum is building for change. A spokesman said "regardless of what the FAA does, our pilots will have to find their own way of dealing with" the issue.
Already, union leaders have negotiated labor contracts with at least two Canadian carriers explicitly allowing pilots to stay past the age of 60. And pilot age hasn't been a factor in any of the high-profile jetliner crashes in recent years.
Robert "Hoot" Gibson, a former astronaut who was forced to retire from Southwest Airlines Co. in October, said today's situation is "ludicrous" because "it isn't based on medical evidence." He said retirement should hinge on the specific health of pilots, who are required to pass an FAA-sanctioned medical exam every six months in order to remain on flight duty.
To defuse safety worries, one possible compromise may be to mandate "more-extensive physicals and an increased level of scrutiny" as soon as pilots turn 60, according to Richard Healing, an aviation consultant and former member of the National Transportation Safety Board. "It needs to be done right" to reassure critics, he said.
Advocates of the age 65 rule, including Mr. Gibson, are pleased senior agency officials are starting out with a more-neutral position, rather than dismissing the idea outright as they did in the past. "For the first time, the FAA has said it is neutral" on the topic, Mr. Gibson said.
Earlier this year, Jim Ballough, director of the FAA's flight standards office, signaled the more-flexible approach when he told an international industry conference in Portland, Oregon, that agency officials were "discussing the issue internally" and "looking at our options."
The debate coincides with other efforts to revise traditional pilot scheduling and training rules globally. U.S. and foreign airlines, for instance, are mulling ways to have pilots fly longer-than-normal shifts on ultralong-range international trips. And ICAO is pushing new standards requiring less actual flight time before copilots can receive a license.
To keep the retirement issue in the limelight, Mr. Cottingham and his advocacy organization for 60 and older pilots are contemplating asking the FAA to approve a bunch of exemptions for particular aviators. In an interview last week, Mr. Cottingham said such waivers were granted routinely to pilots of regional aircraft in the late 1990s, and his group plans to start asking the FAA chief for similar exemptions for soon-to-be retirees.
Low-fare domestic carriers Southwest and JetBlue Airways have told the FAA they are eager to start implementing a rule change to help pilots over 60. But legacy carriers with international routes so far have been reluctant to buck their pilot unions by openly supporting such a shift.
Indicating a strategy for the coming fight, a spokesman for ALPA, which recently elected a new president, said "having Congress take the lead and avoid a full-scale rulemaking procedure" by the FAA would "have negative ramifications down the road."
Write to Andy Pasztor at [email protected]
 
Discrimination...hahahah! I still have not seen one valid point as to why this rule should change other than they (soon to be retired) get to make up for "unforseen circumstances". Its political B.S. and everyone who is behind these guys will be paying for there retirement.

And there is no safety issue at all.....BUT, the guy in the right seat can't be over 60..hmmmm

Oh, and since this will change then i will have to support the guys coming back who have retired, its only fair! Funny how the guys who are to retire do not want that..hmm.:rolleyes:
 
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Then move.

Nothing in our constitution guarantees you anything relative to other countries. Do you also want the right to be a murderous warlord, running a dictatorship? I believe you'll find some ICAO coutries that fit that description.

PIPE


It is pretty clear that if a government entity/agency prohibits a US citizen from doing something based on age but then that same agency allows a non-citizen to perform the same service within the US ( gov does not apply the same prohibition to a non-citizen) - this is discrimination.
If Congress or the FAA does not apply a fix, then someone will bring a discrimination lawsuit and will most likely win.
 

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