Age 60 - Suicide of UAL Captain

[T-Bags]

If a guy is depressed and suicidal, why is giving him meds and letting him risk hundreds of other lives the right thing to do?

I think the FAA has EVERY reason to ground you if you are seeking psychiatric help. Its not about punishing the pilot, its about protecting everyone else.

Do you want a guy flying an ILS to mins who's considering suicide? Do you want to be around when that kind of guy gets a bad call from home/scheduling/an ex-spouse?

I'm very sorry this guy offed himself. I don't think him doing that makes a case for either A) softening medical requirements or B) changing age 60. (I mean, c'mon...if he's gonna kill himself who gives a $hit if its at 60 or 65? Its stupid!)

There are resouces without medical help for stress. HIMS programs, counselors, clergy, etc. However, if you a prozac popper or livin' on paxil, I don't think you belong in the position where you are responsible for so many lives without redundant backup. You say "we have a crew...", but the captain is still the boss and who's to say your F/O isn't equally depressed.

There is a reason for medical standards. Stay healthy. Stay sane. But don't ask me for a lot of pity if you go off and shoot yourself.

Well Dr Albie, I'm glad we now have your take...

What you fail to acknowledge is that they DO seek help. Problem is they seek it from a bottle of JD. Personally, I'd rather have a pilot thats been treated by a PROFESSIONAL flying that ILS than an F'n DRUNK dealing with the DT's. Personally, I'd MUCH rather have a pilot who is treated and evaluated as safe by a competent DOCTOR flying my ILS than some guy hiding his depression.

Your mind is a chemical computer. Some times the chems are off. If someone can get their mind "fixed" with chems, then please explained what the problem is?

Do you have a problem with someone who has to take meds for high cholesterol? High BP? How about someone who has to take an aspirin to fix the occasional headache? Do you have a problem with someone who finds that running fixes their moods?

You are not a medical professional. Now go jump up and down on Oprah's couch Tommy.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

and I thought you die quick retiring at age 60 just 4 days wait until 65.

 

[AlbieF15]

I think the analogy you wanted was Tom Cruise lecturing Matt Lauer...

Now--I guess I am just an insenstiive idiot, but I really don't really care HOW you treat the disease if you are suicidal or have a demonstrated problem with those trends you don't need to be flying for an airline. Its not about "fair", its about protecting mom and the kids and the general public.

I've seen a pilot at FDX who lost a medical for some issues like this many years ago. I know of an F-15 driver who also is now grounded. I've also seen several pilots grounded for chronic alcoholism and related issues. I don't relish that at all, and I am genuinely sad for these guys. However, that doesn't change the fact that while all great guys, they probably don't belong out there with lives in the balance.

Think about what you are asking the docs to do. If a guy says "hey...last week I wanted to kill myself...but now I feel fine..." how in the heck is the doc supposed to know when he's cured? Its one thing when the guy leaves the office and kills himself (or God forbid his family), but at what point do we put 100, 200, or more souls on board at risk for the "right" of this guy who we think is "better". It ain't a perfect science, and you can bet the medical guys are spring-loaded to just say "no".

In the AF, although I never did it, there was a program called PRP, or Personnel Reliability Program (I think that's right...). Basically--these were the guys who touched, handled, or dealt with nukes in any form. If you acted squirrelly, had a bad day, a problem at home--and it was a concern--you were reassigned either temporarily or permananently. I don't know what the mechanism was to get your status "back", but because of the gravity of the situation, leaders were very conservative in making those calls. Flying a 747 with a planeload of folks may not be a nuke, but as 9/11 demonstrated an airliner with a madman at the helm can be a weapon of mass destruction.

This isn't a rant against anyone's friend who'd been depressed. It is just a reminder that pilots are not "everyone else", and we have a unique job that requires a certain amount of mental fortitude and ability to adapt to stress. While I hurt for the guy losing a medical, can you at least accept the rationale behind the requirement for fit mental health is pretty important?

 

[race#53]

Albie,
After reading your post i noted "Duck killer" and "psycho" were also
viewing....what was that you said about mental health?

 

[get2flyin]

This guy had absolutely no business in a cockpit. PERIOD.

 

[lowpitchstop]

I agree with Albie 100%

You do not want anyone you know on board an aircraft with someone so "on the edge" that he'll end it if he doesn't get an extension to fly to 65.

Any questions?

 

[Flopgut]

This is very sad.

Wouldn't it be correct to say this had more to do with retirement dollars than retirement age? I could be wrong, but I don't think this would have occurred if the guy had a pension.

My condolences to his family.

 

[Oh-ryan]

This guy had absolutely no business in a cockpit. PERIOD.

Agreed. Also agree with Albie. Anyone that thinks flying a hunk of tin through the air is more important than his family or life itself has got some serious issues and clinical depression is just the tip of the iceburg. I am sorry for this family's loss, but reading this article was not very comforting to me or my flying family.

I also agree with current FAA policies concerning this. Someone posted that these policies result in pilots seeking help from a bottle of JD (or some other form of self medication) instead of seeking professional medical help. This may be true and it may help him through his hard times, but I still don't want this guy wiggling the stick later on down the road when he is "better". A huge part of being a professional pilot is having good judgment and maintaining a high level of personal accountability. When you decide to hit the bottle to help you through some hard times you've executed some pretty poor judgment. This is also an act of selfishness to the highest degree. You are doing what is best for you instead of what's good for the 200+ passengers behind the cockpit door. What you should have done is hang it up, get the treatment you need and find another career. I know my family and I will thank you for it.

 

[glasspilot1]

Define yourself by the important things, not this stupid job.

That's why I just retired at 50 from AA. I'm really over it.

It's so sad about the guy above; flying was his whole life? Gees!

Reminds me of a Captain I flew with in the mid nineties. Nicest guy you'd ever fly with. He was turning 60. I asked: "What you going to do in retirement?" Believe it or not he said: "Oh, I don't know"! Any hobbies? "Oh, not really". He ended up as a ROPE (real old prof. engineer). When he did retire shortly thereafter he died of cancer within 6 months. How sad.

 

[ACWild]

Well Dr Albie, I'm glad we now have your take...

Do you have a problem with someone who has to take meds for high cholesterol? High BP? How about someone who has to take an aspirin to fix the occasional headache? Do you have a problem with someone who finds that running fixes their moods?

I do if they have intentions of killing themselves. Personally, I wouldn't want my family flying on a plane if I knew that one of the pilots has suicidal tendencies. Although I'm sympathetic to people with these problems, they aren't always in a state to make rational decisions. I know because my step-son suffers from these problems.
How would you feel if you knew that one of your pilots is having a particularly bad day and is going to fly in about an hour? Would you or your family get on the plane? Heck, I've flown with people going through nasty divorces who had to be taken off the line. It's nothing personal, but if you're not in the state of mind to act like a professional, you don't belong up there. Jmho.

 

[T-Bags]

I do if they have intentions of killing themselves. Personally, I wouldn't want my family flying on a plane if I knew that one of the pilots has suicidal tendencies. Although I'm sympathetic to people with these problems, they aren't always in a state to make rational decisions. I know because my step-son suffers from these problems.
How would you feel if you knew that one of your pilots is having a particularly bad day and is going to fly in about an hour? Would you or your family get on the plane? Heck, I've flown with people going through nasty divorces who had to be taken off the line. It's nothing personal, but if you're not in the state of mind to act like a professional, you don't belong up there. Jmho.

WADR, I think you and ALBIE are missing the point. In perfect world of kittens and no mean people, it would be great to ground folks with any tendancies we don't like. Unfortunately, we don't live there. Albie talks of the PRP program in the AF. Since they have it all figured out, I'm sure no one in the program ever killed themselves....WRONG.

THESE RULES HAVE THE OPPOSITE EFFECT!!. Granted, if someone is merely nucking futz, it's noticed and he's grounded. The problem is those on the edge or progressing there. THEY WILL NOT SEEK HELP. If someone is going thru a bad divorce, do you want them in the cockpit "untreated"?

In this case, Capt Zenner was NOT a danger to others. He could have gone out on his finni flight in the 400 and killed a lot of people. He wanted to commit suicide, not murder.

I don't want my family flying on a plane with a pilot who has suicidal tendancies either. That's why I want anyone with those tendancies to BE TREATED!! Your solution is to say it's OK for them to fly your family if merely HIDE that tendancy.

 

[BoilerUP]

How many pre-diabetic (or even full-blown Type 2) airline pilots are out there now, refusing proper medical treatment because they don't want to lose their medical?

 

[ACWild]

T-Bags,
I see your point too, but it's not an easy issue. The treatments aren't always effective and a patient can mask the symptoms. There are numerous reasons for them to do so too. Maybe a program like the one for alcohol abuse can be a solution, (with constraints). The image that sticks in my mind is the one of my step-son having a meltdown although he's on meds. It's just not predictable and meds and treatment don't ensure anything.

 

[shiznitobam]

Your solution is to say it's OK for them to fly your family if merely HIDE that tendancy.

You are missing the point. Someone with depression that serious shouldn't be operating an aircraft at all. Period. Dot.

The fact that someone refuses treatment for that condition because they will not be able to perform their job anymore is also a serious problem. It's extremely self-centered to put lives in danger because you have a problem and don't want to find another job/career. There are plenty of, science forbid I say it, management positions in many other industries that would be happy to have someone with the leadership qualities and experience of an airline captain leading and managing people/projects. What do I know, I'm just some office d-o-u-c-h-e (they sensor d-o-u-c-h-e?) who flies for fun.

 

[Diesel]

Man i can't believe he didn't go to NJ. That's where airline pilots go to die.

 

[texman]

God bless him and his family.

 

[Draginass]

If someone is suffering from serious depression they should not be flying. PERIOD. DOT. END OF DISCUSSION. Meds or no meds.

If someone does continue to fly, they are a selfish and stupid dolt that purposely endangers others.

"Fair" has NOTHING to do with it. ONLY medically qualified to fly . . . and that means not only your Class I/II, but also your "self-certification" everyday.

This isn't saying hello to customer coming in the door to Walmart. This is guiding aluminum tubes through the air at 600 mph.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but if you can't hack it, get out.

 

[On Your Six]

Tragic situation no dobut - RIP. However, he knew his retirement was approaching since he began. Plenty of age 60 pilots find great employment opportunities with fractional and Part 135/91 operations every year - his flying career did not have to "end." It is completely ridiculous to blame (or at least insuate) his suicide on the age 60 rule - GIVE ME A FRICKEN BREAK.

Clearly he was unstable and there were probably other external factors that contributed to this unfortunate passing... Using Age 60 in this context is only telling part of the story. Great reporting again (I am sure ALPA helped edit this article).

 

[capt. megadeth]

Reading this pisses me off! I lost my dad to cancer almost a year ago and man what I wouldn't do to have him back! I can't imagine how self centered someone must be to forsake there family and the gift of life. I feel for this mans family and the grief he has selfishly caused them, but don't make this about age 60 or flying for that matter.

I agree. At least they had him till 60. My dad killed himself when I was 7. I'd love to have him back to ask him "What the f***?" I can't imagine things ever getting so bad that you would take your own life.

 

[capt. megadeth]

This isn't a rant against anyone's friend who'd been depressed. It is just a reminder that pilots are not "everyone else", and we have a unique job that requires a certain amount of mental fortitude and ability to adapt to stress. While I hurt for the guy losing a medical, can you at least accept the rationale behind the requirement for fit mental health is pretty important?

I agree Albie. While I understand that people may not go seek medical help due to the risk of losing your medical, I don't think pilots on Prozac is the answer.