Age 60 rule under attack!

[Phaedrus]

Roger.

 

[Nindiri]

Age 60 proponents' argument: "Dang it, you old geezers, I want your job. Retire and give it to me, or I'll make you retire!"

 

[JohnDoe]

Age 60 proponents' argument: "Dang it, you old geezers, I want your job. Retire and give it to me, or I'll make you retire!"

And the anti-age 60 argument: "Hey, I know that I benefitted from this rule with a quicker upgrade due to retirements, but now that I've got mine I want more."

Works both ways. I don't think there is an airline pilot working today that hasn't benefitted from the rule with quicker advancements and/or hiring due to age 60 retirements. Now that they have their position, it's ok to change it.....!

 

[Nindiri]

Indeed it does work both ways. Yet another reason to just leave people alone and stop trying to force arbitrary retirement ages on them.

 

[Flopgut]

So most of you/us are political conservatives and advocate the free market. Tell me this: What makes you all so sure your employers want to keep you around? Your whole career is based on your DOH, and that's pretty much it! There is no "free market" sort of thing in that. Your employer may want to look for a better pilot employee...you have no idea if you really measure up because that's not what moves your career. (any of our careers) You decry a government mandated retirement age, but have NO problem accepting a government mandated retirement age change that gives you a windfall over others?!

What'e the deal?

 

[Phaedrus]

Retire and give it to me, or I'll make you retire!"

If this weren't so absurd on the face of it I'd reiterate your not quite complete grasp on the situation. Besides, I'd ask no old geezer to 'give it to me'. That's sick.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

I just wrote all of my senators in support of the repeal.

I did too...but I already know my Senators are in favor of the repeal of the age 60 rule.

Tejas

 

[Tejas-Jet]

And the anti-age 60 argument: "Hey, I know that I benefitted from this rule with a quicker upgrade due to retirements, but now that I've got mine I want more."

Truthfully, cost control, profits and a growth plan will do/have done more for upgrades than retirements ever will.

Witness US Airways, AA, UAL....tons of retirements in the past 5 years....only a minimum of recalls....

Tejas

 

[Nindiri]

If this weren't so absurd on the face of it I'd reiterate your not quite complete grasp on the situation. Besides, I'd ask no old geezer to 'give it to me'. That's sick.

:laugh: Of course you wouldn't; you'd rather "stick it to" the old geezer.

 

[Phaedrus]

Your sense of humor is spot on, however!

 

[Nindiri]

Fair enough, let's call it a friendly draw.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Policemen and Firemen have to retire at a specific age, and so should pilots. If you want a 62 year old fireman carrying you down a burning staircase, then go for it. Nobody else does, and that goes the same for old pilots.

Whatever in the world gave you the idea that pilots over 60 wouldn't have to pass the same check rides that pilots under 60 are routinely tasked with? You can carp about "situational awareness" all you want, but if a guy can pass his annual check rides and line checks, his situational awareness must be OK, period.

What, you think that those check rides aren't tough enough? You think a weak or marginal pilot might slip through the cracks? Take it up with your Director of Flight Standards. I'm sure he'll be happy to make the check rides tougher. But they'll be tougher for you, too. Let's see how good YOUR situational awareness is, Buck Rogers.

There's still a lot to be said for old age and treachery...and experience.

 

[Phaedrus]

YOUR situational awareness is, Buck Rogers.

Let's not get rash with such severe name calling, shall we?

 

[lostplnetairman]

Thank you Andy for posting this so we could write our Senators and Congresspersons to support the repeal of the Age 60 rule.

 

[two(2)%]

For all you lazy (but concerned) pilots out there (including myself). Here​

are some bullet/talking points. Simply cut, insert personal information, and send or call. This was emailed to me recently by someone at another carrier.
Take charge before it's too late. At least while you're at the unemployment line you can say you tried. ​

Senate Bill 65 and The Age 60 Rule / Current Date 2006​

My Union polled our members and they strongly support the long-standing Age 60 Rule and
oppose the changes proposed in Senate Bill 65 (S.65).​

Introduce yourself​

•​

Introduce yourself and your Union (for example: “I am a pilot with ________carrier. I​

have been flying for __ years, and have attained over ______ flight hours in __ different
aircraft. My qualifications include ______, ______ …. I reside and I vote in your district.”).​

•​

Open the conversation with positive feedback with regard to some aspect of your Senator’s​

or Representative’s recent accomplishments (visit

www.senate.gov or www.house.gov).​

-A recent poll of our members indicates ____% of the responses oppose raising the retirement​

age for pilots from 60 to 65.

​

​

Safety must remain a top priority for commercial aviation in America​

•​

Extending the retirement age to 65 would compromise safety. This is supported by medical​

evidence that reveals an age-related decrease in cognitive and physical skills with age. FAA
studies show pilot accident rates increase as pilot age increases. The chart from a 2003 FAA
Report portrays this long-standing accident rate trend that exists in commercial aviation (Age and
Accidents from Older pilots find not-so-friendly skies by Kathryn A. Wolfe,​

​

CQ Weekly, Jan. 31,​

2005). This graph demonstrates pilot age and mishap rate, revealing generally that pilot

performance and aviation safety improve with experience, and is most helpful from 6,000 to
10,000 hours. After 10,000 hours, experience does not improve pilot performance. But pilot health
and cognitive capabilities deteriorate after age 60, and risks to aviation operations increase
significantly.​

​

​

•​

The authors of amended S.65 recognize the increased medical risk of flying after age 60,​

requiring that a pilot older than 60 must be paired with a pilot younger than 60.​

•​

Recent examples of age-related illnesses for pilots (all medically qualified) that negatively​

impact safety:
- A 59-year old police helicopter pilot who died of a heart attack while at the controls
(Police helicopter pilot dies after slumping at controls,​

​

The Columbus Dispatch, July 18,​

2006).

- A 59-year old pilot for a major cargo carrier who died from a heart attack (​

The Ledger​

(Lakeland, FL), July 12, 2006).

- A pilot died at the controls of an Airbus A330-300 in Indonesia carrying up to 300
passengers traveling to Australia. The pilot suffered a heart attack during takeoff roll and
later died in an ambulance (Bali flight tourists in emergency landing; pilot dies on take-off
to Adelaide,​

The Advertiser (Australia), July 31, 2006).​

The US should not allow international opinion to dictate U.S. aviation safety policy​

•​

Amended S.65 is dependent upon International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO)​

changes under consideration. The United States should not allow an international

body to effectively dictate U.S. aviation safety policy. Doing so would constitute a
needless sacrifice of American sovereignty.​

​

​

•​

Flight physical standards would likely be based upon Joint Aviation Requirements​

(JAR), regulations implemented by the Joint Aviation Authorities (JAA). There is no
specific medical standard tied to the ICAO language at this time. This aspect of the
Bill must be clearly explained and the ramifications fully considered.​

•​

While foreign regulations pertinent to aviation deserve consideration, responsibility​

for aviation safety and responsibility within our borders should remain with our
governing body – the FAA. They are accountable to you and to the public.​

The long-standing Age 60 Rule has worked​

•​

The Age 60 Rule is supported by medical evidence, as indicated by repeated FAA​

studies. The bottom line is that it has worked effectively for more than 40 years. It
should not be changed to allow a small group of older pilots to fly longer to meet
individual financial goals or for any other economic agenda.​

•​

If modified, The Age 60 Rule should be considered as a stand-alone Bill so that all​

implications to the traveling public can be rigorously aired in the public domain.​

​

 

[Nindiri]

I noticed that when people complain about the possible repeal of the age 60 rule here, they talk about fairness and how it may hurt them financially, but when they send letters or emails to Congress they talk about safety. Hmmm.

 

[JohnDoe]

but when they send letters or emails to Congress they talk about safety. Hmmm.

It's also interesting that this bill we are talking about also addresses the safety issue.

It states that any person over 60 must be paired with somebody under 60. Hmmmm.....if it's ok, there should be no need for an under 60 pilot. Apparently somebody doesn't really think it is ok.

Either it is ok to have somebody over 60 or it's not. Including the need for an under 60 kinda contradicts their arguement.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Senate Bill 65 and The Age 60 Rule / Current Date 2006​

My Union polled our members and they strongly support the long-standing Age 60 Rule and
oppose the changes proposed in Senate Bill 65 (S.65).​

Introduce yourself​

•​

Introduce yourself and your Union (for example: “I am a pilot with ________carrier. I​

have been flying for __ years, and have attained over ______ flight hours in __ different
aircraft. My qualifications include ______, ______ …. I reside and I vote in your district.”).​

•​

Open the conversation with positive feedback with regard to some aspect of your Senator’s

​

Guys...guys...guys....you really think that an overworked, underpaid Senate staffer has time to read your every little word over your trivial little worry?

Just like a resume, when writing to a Senator/Congressman, make the letter as short as possible...2-3 paragraphs and that should be it.

Just like a resume....too much detail puts people to sleep...unless they are your co-workers...

Just some friendly advice...

BTW...even the FAA hasn't been able to present the congress with any safety data on age 60+ pilots....so don't use the safety arguement. They've even testified that they are now "neutral" on the age 60 issue.

In addition, don't use the upgrade issue either....imagine writing to a representative because you want a promotion....

Don't be like the Democrats...you gotta have some "game" to get in the door.

Tejas​

 

[FoxHunter]

It's also interesting that this bill we are talking about also addresses the safety issue.

It states that any person over 60 must be paired with somebody under 60. Hmmmm.....if it's ok, there should be no need for an under 60 pilot. Apparently somebody doesn't really think it is ok.

Either it is ok to have somebody over 60 or it's not. Including the need for an under 60 kinda contradicts their arguement.

ICAO has changed the world standard to a max Age 65 for airline pilots effective November 23, 2006. ICAO has adopted the JAA(Europe) rules that have been in effect for a number of years. The one pilot under age 60 rule originated with the JAA. This is the same organization that required you to sit 14 written exams for the ATPL vs the one required by the FAA. ICAO has adopted the JAA standard but has also stated the one pilot under age 60 is expected to be temporary.

All the issues brought up by the anti-change individuals have been brought up and discussed at length with every Senator or Legislative Aides. They are well aware of where the opposition to the change comes from and the true reasons. Thanks FI.

 

[G4G5]

Mars will attack too.....!!!!!!


Bye Bye--General Lee

Are you saying, that's it's not going to happen?

Time to change the water in your bong, Cheech

 

[G4G5]

Most people around age 60 have a major lack of situational awareness, and that is dangerous. Just look what happened in LEX with two young guys.(no disrespect intended) Policemen and Firemen have to retire at a specific age, and so should pilots. If you want a 62 year old fireman carrying you down a burning staircase, then go for it. Nobody else does, and that goes the same for old pilots. Sad but true for the majority.


Bye Bye--General Lee

The FAA already allows 62, heck 72 year old FA's to carry your as$ out of a burning aircraft.

 

[G4G5]

ICAO has changed the world standard to a max Age 65 for airline pilots effective November 23, 2006. ICAO has adopted the JAA(Europe) rules that have been in effect for a number of years. The one pilot under age 60 rule originated with the JAA. This is the same organization that required you to sit 14 written exams for the ATPL vs the one required by the FAA. ICAO has adopted the JAA standard but has also stated the one pilot under age 60 is expected to be temporary.

All the issues brought up by the anti-change individuals have been brought up and discussed at length with every Senator or Legislative Aides. They are well aware of where the opposition to the change comes from and the true reasons. Thanks FI.

Ding, ding, ding..... We have a winner.

This may be a shock to some of you but the FAA, no longer drives the bus. The JAA does. For the last 10 years, the JAA has been leading the pack and the FAA has been sliced and diced to the point where they no longer have the funding to tackle issues of this magnitude.

Just do a little research and take a look at how many conuntries have the ability to go beyond 60. Then ask yourself, if during your life career, is their the possibility that, just maybe it may be extended beyond age 60? I am not saying I am for it, what I am saying is; if your answer is yes, plan accordingly. Because IMHO, it's not a matter of if but when.

 

[Cobra]

Thanks Andy for putting this thing together:

I made sure my Senators understood my most emphatic NAY to a rule change at this time.

G

 

[G4G5]

FYI:
More than 37 ICAO nations currently allow airline pilots to fly beyond age 60. 83% of the ICAO members have indicated a willingness to raise the retirement age to 65, when they meet in Nov. of this year, to consider the issue

 

[PCL_128]

FYI:
More than 37 ICAO nations currently allow airline pilots to fly beyond age 60. 83% of the ICAO members have indicated a willingness to raise the retirement age to 65, when they meet in Nov. of this year, to consider the issue

I don't know why you guys keep mentioning this. What other countries do should have no effect on our own policy. If you want to change policy, then you had better come up with a better argument than "they get to, why can't I?"

 

[Cobra]

My dues don't go to ICAO. Last time I checked, Canadian and European dues don't go to ICAO either.

 

[G4G5]

I don't know why you guys keep mentioning this. What other countries do should have no effect on our own policy. If you want to change policy, then you had better come up with a better argument than "they get to, why can't I?"

Why?

Because it's the only argument that has any merit to it. You tell me how the FAA plans to come up with any subustantial data to discount the medical data that 37+ other nations have to back their support for 60+? Those nations have already told the FAA that they plan on letting their 60+ pilots FLY IN US AIRSPACE. So it's OK for Airfranc eto have a 65 year old pilot fly the ILS to 4L at JFK but it's not OK for a US pilot? Daaaaaaaaaa, That's why it has merit and we keep brining it up.

You tell me where it is in the FAA's budget to fight this? If you have not noticed the JAA is telling the FAA what to do, it's not the other way around. I just had to install enhanced flight ID into my aircraft at a cost of $25k. Not because the FAA tells me I need it. No, because the JAA tells me that if I don't have it on my aircraft by 3/07, I can't fly in Europe.

Man, you are so far off, you had better come up with an argument that supports why we shouldn't do it where the rest of the world is doing it.

 

[G4G5]

My dues don't go to ICAO. Last time I checked, Canadian and European dues don't go to ICAO either.

Funny thing is that ICAO Annex's help provide the regulations you fly by.

So you can use yours, Canadian and European dues to help defend you from the FAA or JAA when you violate ICAO regulations.

FYI do a Google search on ICAO and their Annex's. Get an understanding of what it is, how big it is and how powerful they are.

You may want to rethink the concept that your almighty ALPA or whatever toothless union you are in actual has the slightest say in what ICAO does.

 

[G4G5]

It's all right here
http://www.icao.int/cgi/goto_m.pl?/cgi/statesDB4.pl?en

 

[PurpleInMEM]

...Man, you are so far off, you had better come up with an argument that supports why we shouldn't do it where the rest of the world is doing it.

Quite simply, because this sovereign state is free to mandate anything it wants over those it subjugates. The Euros do not, although this may be a shot over the bow, set policy here.

All this will do is fuk the furloughed guys, but nobody wants to talk about that. Some brotherhood. Any change that results in furloughed guys staying on the street one minute longer is unconscionable.

To the pro change crowd...you disgust me.