Age 60 issue

[Flopgut]

Would any fractional types that fly with age 60 pilots care to weigh in on the issue on the Majors side? I know there are some retired airline types working at the fractionals, maybe you could give us some feedback. Thanks.

 

[hawkercpt]

What exactly are you looking for?

 

[Flopgut]

Just any feedback that you might feel pertinent to the discussion of age determined retirement. There is a sh1tstorm going on again over this issue again and I suggested we ask some fractional pilots what they thought about it since many of you have flown with professional pilots over 60. If you have time maybe you could check out the thread and weigh in if you care to. I want to avoid the appearance of trying to sway your opinion but I think the perspective that fractional captains could bring to the issue would be especially credible since you are flying with age 60, and beyond, pilots.

 

[sweptwingz]

I've flown with retired EAL, Delta, ATA, TWA, former corporate, and Military guys here at NJA, many are plus 60 years of age, and all have been great guys ! Pilots are pilots....most of them are good people to work with. There is always that 5-10% that you'd prefer not to pair up with, but I suppose that they're everywhere, not just at Netjets.

 

[Peter_Griffin]

at flex I fly with plenty of over 60 guys and have found it to be what it is with all pilots -- you are either born with wings, good enough or downright dangerous. I don't think age matters as far as whether I would keep flying with them...

however the attitudes can sometimes be a bit much -- the I flew the big dogs for xxx years so eat my **** or the I have over 15000 hours so don't tell me __________ but that's a different story and few and far between thank butter...

If they can pass their medical, why not let them fly... I know guys in their 30's who barely squeak thru the medical...

Sometimes age 60 guys might be better suited for the fracs -- no little ones at home and more flexible home lives in general, if I can make such a blanket statement...

 

[SafetyTheSeat]

The ones I have flown with do a outstanding job.. Like me they can hump bags, clean aircraft, order and eat great crew food and last but not least- bitch about anything and everything..

Simply pilots doing an outstanding job... Great guys on the road and hard workers... Real stupid of the airlines to not try to retain them.. In short they are an asset!

 

[Diesel]

I think a lot of the 60 plus guys realize that this job is 10x's harder than any job that they had back at brand X. Most are humbled by how much we have to do and realize that any experience they had back at brand X doesn't carry much weight.

There are two type of 60 guys out there. There are those that aren't ready to hang it up yet. They do a great job and really put in the work. They want to learn and teach at the same time. Simply a blast to fly with and know that this is a job just like any other job and they teach you to slow down and take your time.

Then there are the 60+'s out there that have a couple a divorces, a couple of mortages and can't hang it up because they can't afford it. They are bitter and pissed. Thank god this is the small small minority.

 

[DO-82 driver]

....and there are those 60+ who are there for the benefits....mostly medical until they reach age 65. The folks I have flown with have been OUTSTANDING and I view them as a source of knowledge I have yet to learn. I consider it a priveldge to fly with them and to benefit from their experiences.

Many of them are also some of the strongest Union supporters we have...

 

[Flopgut]

This is great. Thanks for the feedback.

Has anyone flown with any 63,65,67 or 70 year olds? Has every pilot you have flown with from this demographic completely transcended age or do you see a change at some point?

Additionally, your companies are interviewing these folks for the jobs. Only the ones who want/need to work are applying. Do you think your companies are hiring every 60+ pilot that asks for a job or is it pretty competitive for them too?

Thanks

 

[DO-82 driver]

Though I have no proof, I truely believe NetJets might be interrested in these folks because they no the more "experienced" pilot probably won't be hanging around for long periods of time.....save on the pay.

I have no idea concerning the competativeness amnognst the more "seasoned" pilots.

Right now, Netjets will probably hire ANYONE who can use PBI,TEB,CMH,DAL or LAX as their bases....I think that pool is going to dry up real quick.

 

[Ultra Grump]

This is great. Thanks for the feedback.

Has anyone flown with any 63,65,67 or 70 year olds? Has every pilot you have flown with from this demographic completely transcended age or do you see a change at some point?

Additionally, your companies are interviewing these folks for the jobs. Only the ones who want/need to work are applying. Do you think your companies are hiring every 60+ pilot that asks for a job or is it pretty competitive for them too?

Thanks

What others haven't mentioned is that during indoc everyone is subject to a significantly more thorough medical exam than your typical 1st Class, and must pass to remain employed beyond indoc. So those over-60ers here are probably healthier than your average recent major retiree.

 

[Diesel]

sometimes its not the health it's the automation and the key typing and trying to make the plane do what you want it to do. 60+ might have no problem flying where you do see problems is automation and the go go go change change change of the mentality.

 

[Tommy Boy]

This is great. Thanks for the feedback.

Has anyone flown with any 63,65,67 or 70 year olds? Has every pilot you have flown with from this demographic completely transcended age or do you see a change at some point?

Additionally, your companies are interviewing these folks for the jobs. Only the ones who want/need to work are applying. Do you think your companies are hiring every 60+ pilot that asks for a job or is it pretty competitive for them too?

Thanks

I have had a different experience than a lot of these guys have. I have flown with 6-7 retired airline/corporate guys. The retired corporate guy was 70 and flew the plane like it was on rails!! 3 of the retired airline guys simply could not hang. Half of it was attitude, ie "I have xx thousand hrs as pic on 7x7 and blah blah blah" and the other half was they were just too old. They could not adapt to the new plane and especially to the new technology. Like the jeppeson electronic charts. The other 3 retired airline guys were just as good as anyone else I flew with.

The problem is most of us don't have the ability or willingness to recognize when we should throw the towel in. Our ego gets in the way.

I think if they get rid of the age 60 rule there should be some added stipulations for the medical. Some sort of mental testing or something.

I will also say a lot of it had to do with the kind of life they led. The guys who were still sharp did a lot of exercise, were outgoing etc etc

And our company has started actively seeking young inexperienced pilots...that they can take advantage of.

 

[Duke of Ale]

Flopgut:
I am a 66 yr old frac pilot that retired from over 34 yrs with an airline. One thing that puzzled me was when I was 59, I was limited to 30 in 7, 24 hrs off in a 7 day period , 8 in 24 and 100 per month. Now that I am older I can fly 10 hrs per day 7 days a week and lots of time each month. What's with that? It took a long time for me to adjust to this frac business. Constant change was something I was not used to. You can never make any plans on the road. The automation was not a problem since I have flown with "Magic" since 1985. I am getting a little tired now and may last 2-3 more years. Anything else you want to know?

 

[Grizz]

Don't let Dukie fool ya - he's gonna outlast us all.

 

[Spooky 1]

sometimes its not the health it's the automation and the key typing and trying to make the plane do what you want it to do. 60+ might have no problem flying where you do see problems is automation and the go go go change change change of the mentality.

Okay I am confused here? What do you think these guys have been flying for all these years, DC6's I would imagine that most of them have been dealing with automation for at last fifteen to twenty years at a minimum before they retired and came over to the dark side. Type fast or die is has very little to do with airmanship. Most guys can type faster than me, but I don't see what it has to do with this job discription. Switching to a new FMS protocol is usually a significant event for most pilots at any age. Example; the Boeing Honeywell FMS uses what/where analogies, where the Airbus and McDonnell MD11/MD10 use where/what analogies. Almost eveyone stumbles through this learning curve when they first switch from one proptocol regardless of age.
I have seen many more errors with pilots who can make that FMS smoke, that the pilots who are methodical in their application of FMS programing. Just my opinion.

 

[Diesel]

I might have to explain myself a little further.

Automation in itself is not the problem. Sure there are problems but those are usually taught or overcome. It's the automation, coupled with the constant changes, coupled with all the other duties involved in this job, coupled with baggage loading, coupled with the catering.

If all you had to do all day was just punch the box Corky himself could do it. It's the automation coupled with the changes and the way we fly these planes. The airlines at 60 years old is SID to STAR to ILS. Here it's some a hole place in TX with a circling approach and some god knows where runway and the controller not having any idea what the aproach is so guess what it's the full approach.

It's a multitasking thing. Hopefully I'll be able to do it half as good as some of the guys when I'm that age.

 

[Dan Roman]

Flopgut, that was a good idea to pose the age 60 question here. I think it's safe to say turning 60 isn't a good arguement for grounding someone.

The just held a GP Masters race for ex F-1 drivers over 45. 58 year old Emerson Fittipaldi came in a strong 2nd against a bunch of "kids" in their 40's and early 50's. Intersting piece here;

http://www.autoracing1.com/hotnews.asp?tid=11739

60 is not old.

 

[Flopgut]

Flopgut:
I am a 66 yr old frac pilot that retired from over 34 yrs with an airline. One thing that puzzled me was when I was 59, I was limited to 30 in 7, 24 hrs off in a 7 day period , 8 in 24 and 100 per month. Now that I am older I can fly 10 hrs per day 7 days a week and lots of time each month. What's with that? It took a long time for me to adjust to this frac business. Constant change was something I was not used to. You can never make any plans on the road. The automation was not a problem since I have flown with "Magic" since 1985. I am getting a little tired now and may last 2-3 more years. Anything else you want to know?

Thanks for the info. So do you fly 1200 to 1400 hours per year, or less? 100+ hours a month? Do you feel like what you are doing should be widely accepted of every 65+ year old pilot?

Conceptually, I think that by looking at what is going on in the fractionals the industry could come up with some basic "metrics" on what could be criteria for an amendment to the retirement age. However, when they actually do change it they will probably just pull some number out of thin air with absolutely no scientific process.

I do want to know one thing: Its a dumb question. Do you think the age should be changed? To what? From your unique perspective, give us your thoughts. Do you wish you were still at the airline? Do you ever think about what your pension would be like if you were? Do you have any pilot friends who left the fractional for an airline 4 years ago who are now furloughed indefinitly?

 

[Flopgut]

Flopgut, that was a good idea to pose the age 60 question here. I think it's safe to say turning 60 isn't a good arguement for grounding someone.

The just held a GP Masters race for ex F-1 drivers over 45. 58 year old Emerson Fittipaldi came in a strong 2nd against a bunch of "kids" in their 40's and early 50's. Intersting piece here;

http://www.autoracing1.com/hotnews.asp?tid=11739

60 is not old.

Well Dan, maybe you could go drive F1? Or, better yet, why don't you go work with the Duke at the fractional? The F1 circuit does not go by seniority for finishes, its competitive. Don't get carried away about projecting those sorts of examples on your own situation. You did not necessarily outperform anyone to become a 767 captain. The determining factor was/is your date of hire. I don't want to abandon the seniority system so lets not get confused about why you are 767 captain. I will be the first to admit that rostering and assignments would not be good for me. I'm not even trying to make this about you vs. me; I'm concerned about the generation of airline pilots that are at risk of being lost for good. And, the fact that if we change this age once, (to 65 lets say) you will want it changed to seventy in a few years!

You benefited for your entire career by having people like the Duke retire at 60. Duke benefited for years the same way. Now, we are supposed to consider forfeiteing the very best aspects of this profession to a very few senior pilots?