Age 60 issue

[Ultra Grump]

This is great. Thanks for the feedback.

Has anyone flown with any 63,65,67 or 70 year olds? Has every pilot you have flown with from this demographic completely transcended age or do you see a change at some point?

Additionally, your companies are interviewing these folks for the jobs. Only the ones who want/need to work are applying. Do you think your companies are hiring every 60+ pilot that asks for a job or is it pretty competitive for them too?

Thanks

What others haven't mentioned is that during indoc everyone is subject to a significantly more thorough medical exam than your typical 1st Class, and must pass to remain employed beyond indoc. So those over-60ers here are probably healthier than your average recent major retiree.

 

[Diesel]

sometimes its not the health it's the automation and the key typing and trying to make the plane do what you want it to do. 60+ might have no problem flying where you do see problems is automation and the go go go change change change of the mentality.

 

[Tommy Boy]

This is great. Thanks for the feedback.

Has anyone flown with any 63,65,67 or 70 year olds? Has every pilot you have flown with from this demographic completely transcended age or do you see a change at some point?

Additionally, your companies are interviewing these folks for the jobs. Only the ones who want/need to work are applying. Do you think your companies are hiring every 60+ pilot that asks for a job or is it pretty competitive for them too?

Thanks

I have had a different experience than a lot of these guys have. I have flown with 6-7 retired airline/corporate guys. The retired corporate guy was 70 and flew the plane like it was on rails!! 3 of the retired airline guys simply could not hang. Half of it was attitude, ie "I have xx thousand hrs as pic on 7x7 and blah blah blah" and the other half was they were just too old. They could not adapt to the new plane and especially to the new technology. Like the jeppeson electronic charts. The other 3 retired airline guys were just as good as anyone else I flew with.

The problem is most of us don't have the ability or willingness to recognize when we should throw the towel in. Our ego gets in the way.

I think if they get rid of the age 60 rule there should be some added stipulations for the medical. Some sort of mental testing or something.

I will also say a lot of it had to do with the kind of life they led. The guys who were still sharp did a lot of exercise, were outgoing etc etc

And our company has started actively seeking young inexperienced pilots...that they can take advantage of.

 

[Duke of Ale]

Flopgut:
I am a 66 yr old frac pilot that retired from over 34 yrs with an airline. One thing that puzzled me was when I was 59, I was limited to 30 in 7, 24 hrs off in a 7 day period , 8 in 24 and 100 per month. Now that I am older I can fly 10 hrs per day 7 days a week and lots of time each month. What's with that? It took a long time for me to adjust to this frac business. Constant change was something I was not used to. You can never make any plans on the road. The automation was not a problem since I have flown with "Magic" since 1985. I am getting a little tired now and may last 2-3 more years. Anything else you want to know?

 

[Grizz]

Don't let Dukie fool ya - he's gonna outlast us all.

 

[Spooky 1]

sometimes its not the health it's the automation and the key typing and trying to make the plane do what you want it to do. 60+ might have no problem flying where you do see problems is automation and the go go go change change change of the mentality.

Okay I am confused here? What do you think these guys have been flying for all these years, DC6's I would imagine that most of them have been dealing with automation for at last fifteen to twenty years at a minimum before they retired and came over to the dark side. Type fast or die is has very little to do with airmanship. Most guys can type faster than me, but I don't see what it has to do with this job discription. Switching to a new FMS protocol is usually a significant event for most pilots at any age. Example; the Boeing Honeywell FMS uses what/where analogies, where the Airbus and McDonnell MD11/MD10 use where/what analogies. Almost eveyone stumbles through this learning curve when they first switch from one proptocol regardless of age.
I have seen many more errors with pilots who can make that FMS smoke, that the pilots who are methodical in their application of FMS programing. Just my opinion.

 

[Diesel]

I might have to explain myself a little further.

Automation in itself is not the problem. Sure there are problems but those are usually taught or overcome. It's the automation, coupled with the constant changes, coupled with all the other duties involved in this job, coupled with baggage loading, coupled with the catering.

If all you had to do all day was just punch the box Corky himself could do it. It's the automation coupled with the changes and the way we fly these planes. The airlines at 60 years old is SID to STAR to ILS. Here it's some a hole place in TX with a circling approach and some god knows where runway and the controller not having any idea what the aproach is so guess what it's the full approach.

It's a multitasking thing. Hopefully I'll be able to do it half as good as some of the guys when I'm that age.

 

[Dan Roman]

Flopgut, that was a good idea to pose the age 60 question here. I think it's safe to say turning 60 isn't a good arguement for grounding someone.

The just held a GP Masters race for ex F-1 drivers over 45. 58 year old Emerson Fittipaldi came in a strong 2nd against a bunch of "kids" in their 40's and early 50's. Intersting piece here;

http://www.autoracing1.com/hotnews.asp?tid=11739

60 is not old.

 

[Flopgut]

Flopgut:
I am a 66 yr old frac pilot that retired from over 34 yrs with an airline. One thing that puzzled me was when I was 59, I was limited to 30 in 7, 24 hrs off in a 7 day period , 8 in 24 and 100 per month. Now that I am older I can fly 10 hrs per day 7 days a week and lots of time each month. What's with that? It took a long time for me to adjust to this frac business. Constant change was something I was not used to. You can never make any plans on the road. The automation was not a problem since I have flown with "Magic" since 1985. I am getting a little tired now and may last 2-3 more years. Anything else you want to know?

Thanks for the info. So do you fly 1200 to 1400 hours per year, or less? 100+ hours a month? Do you feel like what you are doing should be widely accepted of every 65+ year old pilot?

Conceptually, I think that by looking at what is going on in the fractionals the industry could come up with some basic "metrics" on what could be criteria for an amendment to the retirement age. However, when they actually do change it they will probably just pull some number out of thin air with absolutely no scientific process.

I do want to know one thing: Its a dumb question. Do you think the age should be changed? To what? From your unique perspective, give us your thoughts. Do you wish you were still at the airline? Do you ever think about what your pension would be like if you were? Do you have any pilot friends who left the fractional for an airline 4 years ago who are now furloughed indefinitly?

 

[Flopgut]

Flopgut, that was a good idea to pose the age 60 question here. I think it's safe to say turning 60 isn't a good arguement for grounding someone.

The just held a GP Masters race for ex F-1 drivers over 45. 58 year old Emerson Fittipaldi came in a strong 2nd against a bunch of "kids" in their 40's and early 50's. Intersting piece here;

http://www.autoracing1.com/hotnews.asp?tid=11739

60 is not old.

Well Dan, maybe you could go drive F1? Or, better yet, why don't you go work with the Duke at the fractional? The F1 circuit does not go by seniority for finishes, its competitive. Don't get carried away about projecting those sorts of examples on your own situation. You did not necessarily outperform anyone to become a 767 captain. The determining factor was/is your date of hire. I don't want to abandon the seniority system so lets not get confused about why you are 767 captain. I will be the first to admit that rostering and assignments would not be good for me. I'm not even trying to make this about you vs. me; I'm concerned about the generation of airline pilots that are at risk of being lost for good. And, the fact that if we change this age once, (to 65 lets say) you will want it changed to seventy in a few years!

You benefited for your entire career by having people like the Duke retire at 60. Duke benefited for years the same way. Now, we are supposed to consider forfeiteing the very best aspects of this profession to a very few senior pilots?