Age 60 informal poll

[bluesideup1]

Naaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy

 

[100fly]

nay. 60 and i'm done and on a beach.

 

[dane]

The only way to go....

Hello,

NO!!

 

[Skyflyin]

Nah, not yet. Wait until all the furloughed guys/gals are back.

 

[BIGBROWNDC8]

no no no

 

[Snapshot]

No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No

BTW,This poll has already been Formally conducted..........

http://alpa.org/DesktopModules/ALPA_Documents/ALPA_DocumentsView.aspx?itemid=1717&ModuleId=506&TabId=93

 

[Benhuntn]

Hurry up and drop off the first page so we can bury this dead horse. The FAA will change the rule with or without this poll.

 

[G4G5]

Interesting read put out by the APA (American pilots union)

Age 60 Retirement

In 2005, the Senate aviation subcommittee adopted language on a voice vote, requiring the FAA to align the mandatory retirement age to an ICAO standard under development. Although not scheduled for a Senate floor vote, it is anticipated that action on Age 60 will take place during this session. The House has not indicated a time frame. We continue to express our opposition to any change. Following is a synopsis of the ICAO process.

ICAO Retirement Age Proposal

The Joint Aviation Requirements (JAR) is a series of regulations implemented by the European states of the Joint Aviation Authorities (JAA). These replace national regulations so that a harmonized set of standards are applied by all states. The aim is to allow a seamless interchange of aircraft, operations, training and licensing throughout the JAA states. A new system of European aviation regulations (EASA - the European Aviation Safety Agency) was introduced in September 2003, and will gradually supersede the JAR.

ICAO is currently reviewing a proposal to increase the upper age limit for airline pilots from 60 to 65 years. A State letter on the subject was circulated to the member countries in December 2003 and 112 replied. Of these, 83% indicated that an international age limit above 60 years would be appropriate for airline pilots. Seventy two Countries would welcome an international upper age limit of 65 years for pilots engaged in multi-crew operations and a further six Countries preferred no upper age limit at all. Many were of the opinion that only one pilot of age 60 years or older should be accepted in any one flight crew. 16% indicated their preference to maintain the current upper age limit of 60 years, citing possible safety risks and a lack of convincing data that flying after age 60 is safe.

In the light of the responses to the State letter, a proposal to amend Annex 1 to increase the upper age limit for pilots was circulated to the member States in February 2005. This proposed the following new wording for Annex 1:

2.1.10.1 A Contracting State, having issued pilot licenses, shall not permit the holders thereof to act as pilot-in-command of an aircraft engaged in international commercial air transport operations if the license holders have attained their 60th birthday or, in the case of operations with more than one pilot where the other pilot is younger than 60 years of age, their 65th birthday.
2.1.10.2 Recommendation. - A Contracting State, having issued pilot licenses, should not permit the holders thereof to act as co-pilot of an aircraft engaged in international commercial air transport operations if the license holders have attained their 65th birthday.

An ICAO Standard, as is paragraph 2.1.10.1, represents a mandatory minimum requirement and member States must notify ICAO if they do not meet the Standard. States can choose to impose a more restrictive limit. A "Recommendation", is regarded as 'desirable' and does not represent a formal minimum requirement.

Current Situation

The replies to the State letter distributed in February of 2005 were discussed by the ICAO Air Navigation Commission in November 2005. The Commission agreed that a report for consideration by the ICAO Council should be drafted and it is anticipated that the Council will review this in the early part of 2006. The final Amendment is intended to become applicable in November 2006.

The current JAR Medical Standards for the Class 1 Examination are demanding. The exams are required annually if under 40 years of age and every 6 months if over 40 years of age. The exam is more extensive than the FAA Class I and specific differences include more detailed hearing requirements, a Lung Function (Peak Flow) Test, a Hemoglobin Blood Test, a Cholesterol Blood Test, and a Chest X-Ray. All of these items are not required every 6 months. Additionally, the published UK guidelines on examinations indicate exams cost around $620. The LAC committee will provide copies of the specific ICAO medical standards if desired.

The JAA Member States include the following:

United Kingdom Turkey Finland Monaco
Ireland Poland Malta Slovak Republic
Norway France Estonia Sweden
Switzerland Cyprus Netherlands Latvia
Czech Republic Denmark Austria Iceland
Slovenia Croatia Hungary Germany
Portugal Greece Belgium Lithuania
Romania Italy Spain Luxembourg

 

[FoxHunter]

Interesting read put out by the APA (American pilots union)

The current JAR Medical Standards for the Class 1 Examination are demanding. The exams are required annually if under 40 years of age and every 6 months if over 40 years of age. The exam is more extensive than the FAA Class I and specific differences include more detailed hearing requirements, a Lung Function (Peak Flow) Test, a Hemoglobin Blood Test, a Cholesterol Blood Test, and a Chest X-Ray. All of these items are not required every 6 months. Additionally, the published UK guidelines on examinations indicate exams cost around $620. The LAC committee will provide copies of the specific ICAO medical standards if desired.

Mixing apples and oranges???

The INITIAL Class 1 medical calls for all those tests, conducted in the case of the UK at Aviation House, Gatwick for about the $620 mentioned. The renewal is much like the FAA Class 1 conducted by the standard JAA AME in your local town/city. There is also a great difference in standard between the initial and renewal. Fitness has not really caught on in Europe. You would be hard pressed to find a non smoking cockpit, non smoking restaurant, low fat menu through most of Europe.

Different union, same school.

 

[Dave Siegel]

Hi! It's Dave.

In this challenging economic climate, abolishing the Age 60 rule is indeed a necessary step in the process. My limo driver shops at Wal-Mart, and he tells me that there are lots of elderly people working there. Since you can work at Wal-Mart when you're over 60, and flying an airplane on autopilot is SIGNIFICANTLY less stressful than greeting people at the door and handing yellow smiley stickers to shoppers, it's clear to me that Age 60 is purely an arbitrary age, and should be changed immediately.

Imagine the training costs we could save by keeping these pilots here. Even better, we now open up the applicant pool significantly, and therefore we can REDUCE salaries yet again. When pilots feel that they are "just fortunate to get the job", they tend not to complain about wages and work rules.

Jet Blue EMB rates are a great example of this. I am still pleasantly surprised that Jet Blue pilots still haven't unionized as well. The future there will prove to be very exciting as management can change their work rules, furlough out of seniority, and conduct a wide variety of "other" tactics. These pilots won't know what hit them until it's too late.

Hey, Frank, does Jet Blue management still have a copy of your old playbook? That thing is like Gold. I can't wait until Saturday so that we can tee it up again and laugh at how desparate the industry has become.

 

[71KILO]

POST IS DEAD! STOP VOTING CAUSE I'M NO LONGER KEEPING TRACK FOR YOU ALL. NOT MY FAULT IF IT KEEPS GOING, SORRY.

FINAL RESULTS:

115 votes:

50 YEA (16 mil / 34 civ)
65 NAY (19 mil / 46 civ)

56% want the rule to remain 60 and out.
44% want it to change and allow for FAR part 121 flying after 60.

Good luck to both sides. Write your congressman and senators.

DONE! You decide what these results mean or don't mean.

THREADS DEAD BABY... threads dead.

STOP IT. Don't even think about submitting a quick post reply. Let it go................


out.

 

[hudbaby]

I vote NAY

 

[bestpilot]

THREADS DEAD BABY... threads dead.

STOP IT. Don't even think about submitting a quick post reply. Let it go................


out.

Duude, dat's just like an open invite for like this ole post to be like goin on like for freaking ever, my brother from another mother.

Duuude, as long as da Tranny be like a wicked cool place to be like workin, then dat be cool, but I aint knowin abouts watchin ole Ty Webb tryin to like work da magic in his polyesthers and white socks and like fake teeth. Dude, Ty be like seein his FO like tryin to hook up with some young thing, dan like ole Ty would be like swoopin in to snatch that young thing. "Hey Baby, how you doin? Don't I be like knowin you from somewhere, you purdy lil' thing?"

Then she says, "Oh, hey there Mr. Webb, oh yes, you know me cause I went to High School with your granddaughter!!!!"


YUUUUCK!!!!!! Ty, maybe we shoulds retire at 60, you dirty ole man!!!!!!

 

[pkober]

keep it going !!!! don't stop !!!!

 

[Focus]

Anyone worried about the outcome of this vote obviously did not consult with a financial adviser. Good Luck to all.....As for me, I hope I'm retired by 55; at least thats what my advisor tells me to expect...He works for Gresom, Foolem, and Fokem. I have his number if anyone is interested.

 

[Focus]

Seriously, this career field is getting very lame financially....The men that made flying what it is today must be rolling over in their graves saying.......................WTF.....................happend. Many Aviators will leave the field and never know WTF happend if this monstrousity continues. We will all be left in the very capable hands of a Few Good Men that are willing to do it for FREE> Sign me up for that....NOT!!!

 

[pilotyip]

This is still a great career field, you can still reach the $100K figure without a college degree. $100K is in the upper 95% of US income. To be paid that much to do something you like is something few people ever get to experience. Fly because you like to.

 

[Focus]

Thats Exactly what Im talking about.......Enough Said....$100k ..choke me as I Sneez babe.....thats exactly why I chose this path. I love to fly but you must remember there are many amongst us that can knock down 6 figures in 6 month just selling wet dreams. If thats all you want or wish for out of your life then have at it.......... Where exactly are your standards? $100k for spending half your time away from your family....Dude....sign up for Ebay. Sorry but this is not about the love of flying anymore...Its about careers.....Family,,,,,,and having the ability to live some sort of a quality life. Without those things what do we end up with....."nice greaser babe, nice job , nice whatever....its really getting old....oh, and by the way, I have never seen someone ride the van and look so relaxed as you....get real.....Its a JOBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBB/Careerrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr/Moneyyyyyyyyyyyyyy to do the things you really want to do..... Sorry Man,,,,but that really is the reality of it.....So you ask,,,,what else can one do to make $100k/year.....Many things and right from your home....Ex.....Just answer your phone and say GEICO.

 

[PCL_128]

This is still a great career field, you can still reach the $100K figure without a college degree. $100K is in the upper 95% of US income. To be paid that much to do something you like is something few people ever get to experience. Fly because you like to.

I just had this conversation with the Delta crew I rode the jumpseat with yesterday. The Captain was talking about how pathetic our salaries have truly become in just a few short years. Three years ago you could reasonably expect to make $350,000 a year by the end of your career, but now the max is about $180,000. Corrected for inflation, a Pan Am 747 Captain before de-regulation made about $700,000. Our salaries have dropped over and over again because guys like you keep saying "well, it's better than a desk job I guess." How low are you willing to go? $90k? Maybe $80? How about $60? Is that still better than a desk job because you "love to fly?" Stop selling yourself short.

 

[pilotyip]

I am so sorry you are all so unhappy. I consider myself one of the luckiest guys in the world to have lived out a childhood dream. I have flown in the Navy, landed on aircraft carriers, flown all over the world, and flown in direct combat support. I would change little, I am truly happy. If you are unhappy, it is not my fault or the fault of anyone on this board. BTW do not lie down this family separation stuff, it comes with the job, everyone knows about it. If being home every night is the top priority in your life, become a schoolteacher. Fly because you like to.

 

[CaptainMark]

PCL 128...i agree...pilotyip is lost in the stone ages...good luck to you

 

[level370]

ney...

 

[§kyye Candy]

I respectfully disagree...

do not lie down this family separation stuff, it comes with the job, everyone knows about it.

If you are going to use that logic regarding time away from home/base/family/whatever, then you have to also acknowledge that work rules, scheduling, scope and salary expectations were ENTIRELY different back in the day. Sure, we all expected travel away from home - but how many days/month? And for how much $$$? What was the payoff?

I am happy for my military friends who are able to transition to a career as civ. pilots while also bringing in a fair amount of $ in government income and pensions ~ hey, that's a great deal financially. But don't forget that not everyone has that option - it should be considered income and security in addition to your current compensation package, not as part of it. As much as I respect and admire the job that our military pilots have done, don't sell the civ. guys out - and I'm sure I don't have to explain the lifestyle and financial sacrifices of the average civ. pilot before they get to the majors, all with the promise (at one time, anyway) of financial security and lots of time off at the pinnacle of one's career success. THAT has always been a part of the deal, too!

A career as an airline pilot does not and should not include service in our military, and our compensation and benefits should reflect that.

 

[El Ocho]

Yes. Let freedom reign.

It would be interesting to know the age of voters. I think that would clearly divide the answerers into the yea or nay camp... which leads to the conclusion that inevitably most of the young nay voters will become older yea voters...

 

[pilotyip]

PCL and Capt someone if your luck holds out you to may enter the stone age.

 

[Larcifer]

I love the individuals that do it for the love of flying. "All I need is $100K a year to work a half a month, what a great job!" they say. There is a vast majority of us that probably will never see a 100k. 15 years, three furloughs and now working for an LLC that I have a better chance of getting furloughed from than upgrading is getting to be the norm. 12 out of the 15 in my class were all in similar situations. At least were gone alot. What a great way to take care of your family, I'm sure your passion puts food on the table. As long as pilots are willing to sell themselves on substandard pay (100k/yr) the pay will just keep going down.

That's all I've got to say about that.

 

[TheBaron]

Yes!!

 

[pilotyip]

larcifer, what is sub-stanard about $100K/yr, when it is above 95% of the income in the US?

 

[§kyye Candy]

If 100K is such a great paycheck, how come it isn't good enough for mgt?

 

[Clyde]

This is still a great career field, you can still reach the $100K figure without a college degree. $100K is in the upper 95% of US income. To be paid that much to do something you like is something few people ever get to experience. Fly because you like to.

Technically, although you may not need the degree, you still need the training required to accumulate your certificates and ratings.

Let's assume a person comes right out of high school and decides to go immediately into flight school. Let's also assume that this person must finance (borrow the money) the training on his own.

What does it cost to go from student all the way through MEI? It's been awhile since I've done it, but I am going to say approximately $30,000.00, plus whatever room and board expenses may have to be met. For simplicity, let's say $30K.

The kid is a real whiz, and completes all training in 12 months. So, first year out of high school, and here we have a fully-trained CFI/II/MEI with 300 hours and $30,000.00 in debt.

Let's look at a sample timeline. (I know, it not's exact)

2 years of flight instructing at $300.00/week. $15,600/yr
1 year of flying cancelled checks in a C-310. approx: $20,000.00

At year 3, our star-student either goes to a regional airline or a jet freight operator. Either way, we have an individual who has grossed $51,200.00 over 3 years. In addition to making installment payments on his loan, this person must also pay rent, groceries, car payment, insurance, and if he has a girlfriend - a credit card bill each month.

From day one of flight instructing to my first year making $100K, it took me 6 years. So let's say this individual is making $100K by year 6.

If the person is single and making $100K/yr, the take-home is probably around $60,000.00/yr. Depending on where he lives, this could be a good or a bad wage. If it's in a rural area, he can probably have a good living. If this person is based in Detroit, New York, Los Angeles, or most other major metropolitan areas, it is going to be tight if this person wants a decent house in a good area. (not prestige area, just a good one). Or, be a full-time renter.

Tack on a wife and even one child, it gets even tighter if this person is the only wage-earner in the house.

I would agree that one can make $100K/yr without a college education in this field, but I think they are more the exception and not the rule. Furthermore, $100K/yr in 2006 dollars isn't an extraordinary amount of money. I would say that it is probably the equivalent of $50 or $60K in the late 1980's.