Age 60 informal poll

[jonjuan]

Forcing qualified and capable pilots out at 60 simply has no merit. Getting hired, upgrading and if/how long you are furloughed should not drive this issue whatsoever. Advancement at an air carrier is not an entitlement. The majority of upgrades and hiring at any major carrier is a product of growth, not attrition.

BTW, one should not be allowed to fly simply as long as their medical is current. Pilots, check airmen, and management must step up to the plate and deal with those, of any age, who cannot meet the standard of proficiency.

Oh, but just in as in Monopoly, you have to play by this "game" by the "rules" which were defined in the 1950s. LOL. I also see your attitude will keep Flopgut from being able to put shoes on his kids feet. LOL.....

 

[Klako]

P.S. I loathe being called a hypocrite by somebody who can't spell hypocrite (or loathe, or independently, or too, or get, or obstacle, or those, or comfortable) correctly. That is ironic at the deepest levels.

I usta couldn't spll aviator, now I are one.

Fly safe!

 

[Flopgut]

Forcing qualified and capable pilots out at 60 simply has no merit. Getting hired, upgrading and if/how long you are furloughed should not drive this issue whatsoever. Advancement at an air carrier is not an entitlement. The majority of upgrades and hiring at any major carrier is a product of growth, not attrition.

BTW, one should not be allowed to fly simply as long as their medical is current. Pilots, check airmen, and management must step up to the plate and deal with those, of any age, who cannot meet the standard of proficiency.

Until a pilot hired after you, can earn a position senior to you, entitlement exists. I don't care how organic, exciting, and different it might feel at SWA, you've benefitted from seniority progression.

At a certain date, one is forced out (60). How is that worse than using another certain date (DOH), to exclude others from any amount of advancement?

A casual observer couldn't understand why age 60 OR DOH matters, simply, who's better for the job? So why just change one? If you're going to make determinations beyond 3rd party medical certification about who stays, you ought to be ready to do the same for who moves up! Right?

That all sounds pretty stupid, doesn't it? I'd rather stick with seniority, I just don't want to give it away! Your seniority means something, mine does too, and so does the pilot hired after us! It IS entitlement and IT should be protected for ALL of us!

 

[Chest Rockwell]

Oh, but just in as in Monopoly, you have to play by this "game" by the "rules" which were defined in the 1950s. LOL. I also see your attitude will keep Flopgut from being able to put shoes on his kids feet. LOL.....

This isn't a game of monopoly. The rules have and will continue to change. Part 61, 91 and 121, etc. We can discuss several changes in FARS over the past couple of decades that impact our carreers.

I do not believe it is attitude, but principle. I do not believe that one should be fired because of a birthday so that another can advance. Again, most advancement is due to growth, not attrition. Perhaps the unions should go for guaranteed upgrade at a certain point in time.

 

[Chest Rockwell]

Until a pilot hired after you, can earn a position senior to you, entitlement exists. I don't care how organic, exciting, and different it might feel at SWA, you've benefitted from seniority progression.

At a certain date, one is forced out (60). How is that worse than using another certain date (DOH), to exclude others from any amount of advancement?

A casual observer couldn't understand why age 60 OR DOH matters, simply, who's better for the job? So why just change one? If you're going to make determinations beyond 3rd party medical certification about who stays, you ought to be ready to do the same for who moves up! Right?

That all sounds pretty stupid, doesn't it? I'd rather stick with seniority, I just don't want to give it away! Your seniority means something, mine does too, and so does the pilot hired after us! It IS entitlement and IT should be protected for ALL of us!

I am no fan of seniority based advancement either. If one is entitled to advance by a certain date, that is something to be addressed via CBAs, not FARs.

 

[General Lee]

Any reason why ICAO won't allow two over age 60 pilots to fly together, alone? Could there be a reason? Sure. They know it could be dangerous. Why would they restrict it otherwise? The main reason for the ICAO change is the LCC explosion in Europe. There aren't enough pilots, and with Ryanair and Easyjet expading, along with other LCCs like Wizair, Vueling, Windjet, Air Berlin, etc---there simply aren't enough pilots. That is the real reason, and it is dangerous and even ICAO knows it, not allowing 2 over age 60 pilots to fly together. We do not have that same problem in the US---with the countless furloughed pilots out there (from TWA, USAir, United, Indy, etc) ready to still go to work. Not the same problem.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[jonjuan]

Any reason why ICAO won't allow two over age 60 pilots to fly together, alone? Could there be a reason? Sure. They know it could be dangerous. Why would they restrict it otherwise? The main reason for the ICAO change is the LCC explosion in Europe. There aren't enough pilots, and with Ryanair and Easyjet expading, along with other LCCs like Wizair, Vueling, Windjet, Air Berlin, etc---there simply aren't enough pilots. That is the real reason, and it is dangerous and even ICAO knows it, not allowing 2 over age 60 pilots to fly together. We do not have that same problem in the US---with the countless furloughed pilots out there (from TWA, USAir, United, Indy, etc) ready to still go to work. Not the same problem.


Bye Bye--General Lee

No, however, it will still pass. Despite all of the Mesa, Comair, CHQ, and ASA pilots who will soon be working with you on San Juan turns.

 

[FoxHunter]

Any reason why ICAO won't allow two over age 60 pilots to fly together, alone? Could there be a reason? Sure. They know it could be dangerous. Why would they restrict it otherwise? The main reason for the ICAO change is the LCC explosion in Europe. There aren't enough pilots, and with Ryanair and Easyjet expading, along with other LCCs like Wizair, Vueling, Windjet, Air Berlin, etc---there simply aren't enough pilots. That is the real reason, and it is dangerous and even ICAO knows it, not allowing 2 over age 60 pilots to fly together. We do not have that same problem in the US---with the countless furloughed pilots out there (from TWA, USAir, United, Indy, etc) ready to still go to work. Not the same problem.


Bye Bye--General Lee

No General, ICAO is not Europe. The JAA (Europe) changed to age 65 years ago. Yes, the JAA decided that one pilot under the age of 60 would be required in the cockpit. Yes, this is Europe where the normal retirement age for pilots, and clerks, and Postman, and teachers, and Doctors, and Bus drivers, and any other working person has been age 55.:beer: That was one large leap for the JAA. Yes the JAA requires 14 written exams vs the FAA 1 for the ATP, but they still managed to say age 65 was OK for two pilot aircraft. Let us not get into a discussion about flight and duty time limitations JAA vs FAA. The fact is that the JAA is far more conservative about everything vs the FAA except the age 60 rule. Why could that be General? Yes the FAA says that I can show up for a flight at 1:00 am, fly 10 legs, stay on duty for 16 hours and I'm safe!!! I can do the same thing with my G550 for 24+ hours duty FAR91 and all is OK, or I can do it at age 87 in my Cessna Citation, single pilot with a plane full of passengers working fo the owner XYZ Corp. Yes General, the public should have full faith in the FAA to ensure their safety.

 

[jonjuan]

No General, ICAO is not Europe. The JAA (Europe) changed to age 65 years ago. Yes, the JAA decided that one pilot under the age of 60 would be required in the cockpit. Yes, this is Europe where the normal retirement age for pilots, and clerks, and Postman, and teachers, and Doctors, and Bus drivers, and any other working person has been age 55.:beer: That was one large leap for the JAA. Yes the JAA requires 14 written exams vs the FAA 1 for the ATP, but they still managed to say age 65 was OK for two pilot aircraft. Let us not get into a discussion about flight and duty time limitations JAA vs FAA. The fact is that the JAA is far more conservative about everything vs the FAA except the age 60 rule. Why could that be General? Yes the FAA says that I can show up for a flight at 1:00 am, fly 10 legs, stay on duty for 16 hours and I'm safe!!! I can do the same thing with my G550 for 24+ hours duty FAR91 and all is OK, or I can do it at age 87 in my Cessna Citation, single pilot with a plane full of passengers working fo the owner XYZ Corp. Yes General, the public should have full faith in the FAA to ensure their safety.

Lee, he's got a good point. Care to retort?

 

[General Lee]

No General, ICAO is not Europe. The JAA (Europe) changed to age 65 years ago. Yes, the JAA decided that one pilot under the age of 60 would be required in the cockpit. Yes, this is Europe where the normal retirement age for pilots, and clerks, and Postman, and teachers, and Doctors, and Bus drivers, and any other working person has been age 55.:beer: That was one large leap for the JAA. Yes the JAA requires 14 written exams vs the FAA 1 for the ATP, but they still managed to say age 65 was OK for two pilot aircraft. Let us not get into a discussion about flight and duty time limitations JAA vs FAA. The fact is that the JAA is far more conservative about everything vs the FAA except the age 60 rule. Why could that be General? Yes the FAA says that I can show up for a flight at 1:00 am, fly 10 legs, stay on duty for 16 hours and I'm safe!!! I can do the same thing with my G550 for 24+ hours duty FAR91 and all is OK, or I can do it at age 87 in my Cessna Citation, single pilot with a plane full of passengers working fo the owner XYZ Corp. Yes General, the public should have full faith in the FAA to ensure their safety.

I know that, ICAO also includes Canada and some other countries outside Europe. Great. You still haven't answered the question---Why would ICAO restrict the number of age 60 or over pilots in a 2 man cockpit? Why? They know and we all know the reason, they don't want two old farts falling asleep at the same time and the plane running out of gas 400 miles past their intended destination. No joke. Give me a reason for that please. Why would the JAA or ICAO (they have the rule also) do that? And, please tell me the real reason for the change in age. Could it be the lack of pilots in Europe due to rapid expansion of LCCs? I think I am right.... I know I am. Please rebutt those facts. Sure, you can fly a citation until you are 99. That is great. Did you read about the 90 year old who killed 10 people and injured 20 with his car in Santa Monica? He did that on his own. Could he get a commercial bus driving license at that age too? No, probably not. There are a lot of rules that really need to be examined for SAFETY reasons. There may be some very fit 60 year olds out there, but the VAST majority need to retire, maybe before 60.

People like to say things have changed due to the lack of pensions. Well, when Mars attacks or the stock market crashes, at that point, we should probably go to 68 years old.....and then maybe 70..... Sorry, everyone needs to invest early on and try to stay with one wife. In the hills of Kentucky you can also marry your sister. Well, if they do it, everyone should be able to, right?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Gofish]

I'm punching out at 55 and moving to the Dominican Rebublic to live on a boat and fish everyday. Work is for losers.

 

[FoxHunter]

I know that, ICAO also includes Canada and some other countries outside Europe. Great. You still haven't answered the question---Why would ICAO restrict the number of age 60 or over pilots in a 2 man cockpit? Why? They know and we all know the reason, they don't want two old farts falling asleep at the same time and the plane running out of gas 400 miles past their intended destination. No joke. Give me a reason for that please. Why would the JAA or ICAO (they have the rule also) do that? And, please tell me the real reason for the change in age. Could it be the lack of pilots in Europe due to rapid expansion of LCCs? I think I am right.... I know I am. Please rebutt those facts. Sure, you can fly a citation until you are 99. That is great. Did you read about the 90 year old who killed 10 people and injured 20 with his car in Santa Monica? He did that on his own. Could he get a commercial bus driving license at that age too? No, probably not. There are a lot of rules that really need to be examined for SAFETY reasons. There may be some very fit 60 year olds out there, but the VAST majority need to retire, maybe before 60.

People like to say things have changed due to the lack of pensions. Well, when Mars attacks or the stock market crashes, at that point, we should probably go to 68 years old.....and then maybe 70..... Sorry, everyone needs to invest early on and try to stay with one wife. In the hills of Kentucky you can also marry your sister. Well, if they do it, everyone should be able to, right?


Bye Bye--General Lee

Some states wanted no age limit, some wanted to keep age 60, the majority wanted age 65. You will find S.65 and HR. 65 in their original form have no such resrtriction. In fact they both raise the age to 66 or 67 depending on your DOB. ICAO like the U.S. Senate decided to adopt a more consrvative requirement in order to get agreement on the age change. It makes it all sound better to the general public, eye wash. The FAA just made it a requirement to be in contact with ATC to fly up the East River in NYC, like that would have avoided the recent tragic accident up there.

BTW Canada has no age restriction.

ICAO is all the countries of the United Nations. Only four nations voted against the change. USA, France, Pakistan, Columbia. Since Pakistan is the big partner in the "War on Terror", and Columbia is a partner in the "War on Drugs" and both receive a great deal of cash and military help from the USA it is no suprising that they would vote with their partner on an minor issue.

 

[Klako]

I'm punching out at 55 and moving to the Dominican Rebublic to live on a boat and fish everyday. Work is for losers.

Get Out Now!

If you don not love your airline job, you have no business being where you are now.

 

[Klako]

John Prater, new ALPA President

Release #06.060
October 18, 2006

ALPA Delegates Elect Capt. John Prater as President
Pilots send clear message to industry of newly aggressive stance

LAS VEGAS, NV ---- The Board of Directors of the Air Line Pilots Association, International (ALPA) today elected Captain John Prater, a B-767 Continental Airlines pilot, to serve as the 8th president in the union’s history.

This decision sends a strong signal to the airline industry that ALPA pilots are prepared to move into a new period of strong, concerted action to rebuild their profession.

“The airline pilots of the United States and Canada today sent a clear message that their union desires to return to its roots of aggressive bargaining, strict contract enforcement, tenacious organizing, and pilot action to restore our contracts and our profession,” Prater said in the wake of his election.

“After five years of concessionary bargaining, lost pensions, and battered work rules, our pilots are primed to take offensive action,” Prater continued. “This may mean a return to the hard-nosed tactics of earlier years and a grassroots mobilization of each and every one of our members.”

While the concessionary era in the airline industry is coming to a close, several airlines remain prisoners of the “1113 process” (whereby management can have labor contracts annulled by the bankruptcy court), and others are stalled in negotiations with their managements. This stagnation takes place while load factors are high, fuel prices are lower, and profits are rising.

“The airline industry survived because of the concessions pilots and other workers made,” Prater said. “Now it is time for us to see a tangible return on these bitter investments.”

Prater is a 28-year veteran of ALPA, having served extensively at all levels. From strike committee chairman to master chairman and a vice chairman of the international alliance, Wings Alliance (now part of the Skyteam Alliance), Prater brings a wealth of experience. His background includes union fights against notorious airline management figures Frank Lorenzo, Carl Icahn, and Dick Ferris.

A graduate of St. Louis University with a bachelor’s degree in meteorology, Capt. Prater is based in Newark, NJ. He is a resident of Edwardsville, IL with his wife Michele and daughter Alexandra. He is the son of John and Esther Prater of Collinsville, IL.

The election was a contest between Prater and current ALPA President, Capt. Duane E. Woerth. Of the 47,968 votes cast, 24,444 went to Prater and 23,524 to Woerth. The new president will take office in January 2007.

Founded in 1931, ALPA is the world’s largest pilot union, representing 61,000 pilots at 40 airlines in the United States and Canada. Visit the ALPA website at www.alpa.org.
----

Where is John Prater on the "Age 60 Rule" issue?

 

[General Lee]

Prater has a lot ot gain by NOT agreeing to or supporting the Age 65 rule, since CAL will be losing close to 1000 pilots next year to age 60. I think and hope he will "sit on the issue" for a couple more years. I think it is really dangerous, and ICAO coming out with a rule (or a guidline) to not have 2 age 60 or higher pilots flying together shows the weakness in that suggestion. Why would they not want two older pilots flying together? Sounds like a safety issue, but since they are short in Europe and other areas of the world due to LCC expansion, they are saddly overlooking the obvious. OLD pilots are dangerous, especially when grouped together.

Bye Bye--General Lee