Age 60 informal poll

[Sonny Crockett]

Al,

Do you care about the guys on Furlough?

The video shows a DAL guy flying an L-1011 and talks about a pilot shortage...kind of a stretch don't you think?

Sorry pal, time to pack up the motorhome and leave the flying to us "young" guys with no experience!

WHAT A CROCK OF S$it!

 

[Freight Dog]

UndauntedSoonToBeRetiree, did you happen to read the Nov/Dec ALPA rag when they talk about Age 60?

Here are some quotes:

"Over the years, the FAA has resisted numerous attempts to change the rule, insisting that any change to the regulation must provide for at least an equivalent level of safety."

"The FAA does grant operational specifications approval to foreign carriers to permit pilots over age 60 to fly into the United States, but the agency does not maintain any data as to the number of such foreign pilots they allow under those specifications. But according to International Federation of Air Line Pilots Associations, of those international airlines whose national regulations allow flying past age 60, fewer than 75 pilots fly into the United States under the special specifications."

"When ALPA polled its members on the issue in 2005, a majority of those participating upheld ALPA's long-standing position. In any case, the current FAA regulation will already be in compliance on November 23 because the new standard does not require contracting states to allow pilots to fly beyond age 60, it merely permits states to do so."

Here's my favorite one:

"... But other groups, including ALPA, feel that it is inappropriate for Congress to dictate unproven safety standards to the FAA, particularly by trying to legislate on an appropriations bill."

I think you'll soon be an UndauntedRetiree.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

The rule is changing. There is nothing that will stop it. It may be in time for me and it may not. There may be Congressinal legislation and there may not, but that will not make a difference in the long run because it is the FAA that makes the change in either case. The FAA may issue waivers and/or regulatory changes.


USA Today's View on age 60

http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2006/11/post_60.html

Opposing View and Letters to the Editor

http://blogs.usatoday.com/oped/2006/11/opposing_view_p.html

Enjoy....

 

[Freight Dog]

If that picture in USA Today is you, then you really do look like you're ready to retire.

All joking aside, did you notice comments how so many of those in the pro-change crowd are the "screw-the-majority" captains?

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

All joking aside, did you notice comments how so many of those in the pro-change crowd are the "screw-the-majority" captains?

No, I did not notice that. In fact I thought they sounded like they just wanted to earn a living at their trade so as to provide for their families. Is that something they should not be interested in doing?

Flew with a female F/O today that thought over 60 pilots should just retire. I asked her if she wasn't just working herself to provide more income for her family, since her husband was a full time NWA pilot. Surely he could provide enough and she wouldn't have to work. She could be a stay-at-home mom if she and her husband kept to a strict budget and they didn't exceed their means.

Oh no, was her answer, she needed to work so her children could have all the things she wants them to have. Plus she wants to do something meaningful with her time.

So how is that any different for the over age 60 crowd that wants to work? It isn't any different. We just want to provide for our families, as does most every other creature on this planet.

 

[Freight Dog]

No doubt you want to work, and there's nothing wrong with you wanting to keep working for as long as you want. The issue becomes when your job is a safety-sensitive one like the one of being an airline pilot.

The following quote is from the most recent ALPA magazine:

"Over the years, the FAA has resisted numerous attempts to change the rule, insisting that any change to the regulation must provide for at least an equivalent level of safety."

Here's my question to you: how does increasing the retirement age provide "at least an equivalent level of safety" when there are thousands of experienced and qualified younger pilots readily available to replace you?

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Here's my question to you: how does increasing the retirement age provide "at least an equivalent level of safety" when there are thousands of experienced and qualified younger pilots readily available to replace you?

Dr. Claus Curdt-Christiansen: http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/pdf99/425073_web.pdf

Check the above link. It explains how experience overcomes the inexperience of the "qualified younger pilots readily available" to replace you crowd. Therefore, it is safer in total to keep the highly expereinced over age 60 pilot.

 

[Freight Dog]

Come on Al, I expected more from you.

You are spitting in the face of every UAL captain flying smaller equipment than you, every first officer at UAL, basically everybody below you on the seniority list.

Take a look at your FO's experience level flying B777 at UAL, and compare them to some foreign ab-initio FO flying similar equipment. No contest. Unlike their ICAO counterparts, your FO's could easily SAFELY replace you.

There is no shortage of pilots in the US. Not only that, but there's no shortage of QUALIFIED pilots in the US. Can't say the same about many ICAO states... As such, there's no safety reason to change the rule in the US, only economic. Is that a good enough reason to potentially jeopardize public safety? I don't think so.

 

[Flopgut]

No, I did not notice that. In fact I thought they sounded like they just wanted to earn a living at their trade so as to provide for their families. Is that something they should not be interested in doing?

Flew with a female F/O today that thought over 60 pilots should just retire. I asked her if she wasn't just working herself to provide more income for her family, since her husband was a full time NWA pilot. Surely he could provide enough and she wouldn't have to work. She could be a stay-at-home mom if she and her husband kept to a strict budget and they didn't exceed their means.

Oh no, was her answer, she needed to work so her children could have all the things she wants them to have. Plus she wants to do something meaningful with her time.

So how is that any different for the over age 60 crowd that wants to work? It isn't any different. We just want to provide for our families, as does most every other creature on this planet.

How's it different from you my friend? FAL just wanted to work, they wanted a chance, they carefully minded your UAL strike and just hoped for the best...YOU toasted them! You ripped out their hearts and crapped all over them! Your bleeding heart crap is ridiculous! YOU (specifically) are one of the worst ALPA merger policy oportunist and YOU know it! Anything you get past 60 is an incredible gift that you do NOT deserve and you know it.

Happy Holidays you selfish, self absorbed piece of.......

 

[luckytohaveajob]

I LOVE this sentence:

"These experts have also testified that, to the extent further testing may be desirable, cardiac stress tests, enhanced blood work-ups, and neurological screening could be added to the standard battery of Class I tests for all pilots."

Let's open up that Pandora's box.

Undaunted, I'm glad to see you continuing to push for the change in spite of the fact that any change will not effect you; you will be retired on 29 Jan 07. Maybe you can effect some change in 2025. Just wait until 2021; I'd like to retire at 60.​

FAA Federal Flight Surgeon has stated that there will be no need to increase medical standards as far as ICAO compliance. And there is no need to change standards in any case.

UndauntedFlyer, your statement is a flat out lie. The FAA Flight Surgeon has been taken out of context and is referring to current standards not needing a change with age 60 as it is today in relation to ICAO age 60 standards.

Every country that has increased its age limit also has increased its medical standards.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

ICAO age comes with ICAO medical testing

ICAO age standards will come with ICAO medical standards.

Take a look at the Australian medical standards brief outline below. Notice the drastic differences between the FAA part 67 class I which is basically a paperwork exercise verse what real medical testing looks like in Australia. Notice the 25 year old age requirements for advanced testing compared to the FAA's 35 year old requirements.

The Australian's start at age 25 and do seven ECG's till age 40 while the FAA would only require two, one at 35 and then at 40. And notice the FAA's 35 year old testing scheme does not include the blood work the 25 year old Australian standards require every five years and then annually after 40. The FAA never requires blood work on an initial or recurrent.

Also notice the differences in the Australian standards between the initial and the recurrent that are unlike the FAA's standards of having no difference between an initial and recurrent.

Plus the Australian class One is the only medical certificate Multi-Crew Pilots are authorized to use as opposed to FAA's Class I for captains only and the FAA's Class II for first officers.

And finally while the Australian medical is valid for one year that depends on the judgement of the examiner which are all Ophthalmologists not just regular MD's like the FAA.

For all those that want the ICAO age standards get ready for the ICAO medical standards. And many many careers of the current under 60 year old US pilots will be cut short by the increased medical testing not to mention all the age 60 and over pilots that will be unable to pass. And did you notice the EXTRA scrutiny of the over 60 crowd in the below Australian standards?

And I am sure that the 30,000 medical waivers a year the FAA issues are not issued by the ICAO medical standards.

Australian Medical certificate requirements

Classes of Medical Certificates for Licence Types

There are three medical standards relating to the various types of licences held. These three standards relate to Class 1, 2 and 3 Medical Certificates.
Class 1
This medical standard is applicable to all professional technical aircrew of powered aircraft, and is required for issue of Airline Transport Pilot Licence, Commercial Pilot Licence, Flight Engineer or Flight Navigator Licences.
Class 2
This medical standard is applicable to Student Pilot, Private Pilot, Commercial Pilot Balloons and Flight Radio Operator Licences.
Class 3
This medical standard is applicable to Air Traffic Services Officers (Air Traffic Controllers and Flight Service Officers). Duration of Validity

Unless otherwise advised by the Aviation Medicine Section:

• Class 1 Medical Certificate is valid for one year.
• Class 2 Medical Certificate is valid for four years, for applicants less than 40 years of age on the day of issue, and in all other cases for two years.
• Class 3 Medical Certificate is valid for two years.

Where an applicant's medical condition is under review, the duration of Medical Certificate validity may be varied at the discretion of the Director of Aviation Medicine.

Special Reports and Tests Required for Class 1, 2 and 3 Certificates

These tests are in addition to the standard medical examination.

Class 1 Initial Issue ECG, audiogram, estimation of fasting serum lipids and fasting blood glucose and an examination by CASA Designated Aviation Ophthalmologist.Class 1Renewals ECGs are required at the first renewal after the 25th, 30th, 32nd, 34th, 36th, 38th and 40th birthdays, and annually thereafter.
Audiograms are required at the first renewal after the 25th birthday and every fifth birthday thereafter.
Estimation of fasting serum lipids and of fasting blood glucose is required at the first renewal after the 25th birthday and every fifth birthday thereafter.

Examination by CASA Designated Aviation Ophthalmologist at age 60 and at two-yearly intervals thereafter.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

quote

I did my first CASA (Australian) Class 1 last year at the advanced age of 34 and it was an eye-opener. All in all it took about 2 days to get done and cost around US$300. They checked everything; Blood, ECG, hearing, full vision test and although I had to rename one of credit cards, the CASA card, I did feel as if I got my money's worth.

I did a CAA (UK) class 1 years ago and that took half a day and a fair chunk of cash aswell.

How do you like them apples, Undauntedflyer?

The EEOC agrees, Senator Inforhe (OK) agrees, and Australia a perfect ICAO example agrees.

Medical standards will increase with an age limit change.

 

[jbDC9]

Well now, looks like our village idiot Klako posted on the USA Today editorial blog that UF posted a link to. You can't miss it, it's halfway down the page, the longest post of the bunch. It's also the same lame rant he's posted on here dozens of times...yawn.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Let's Talk Medical Standards

Medical Standards to increase with age 65!

This is just the standard scare tactic of those who want to stop the unstopable change to age 65.

There is no basis for this belief except as a means to try and stop the change. And that tactic just won't work.

I have personally spoken with the FAA chief areomedical surgeon several times on this subject. The answer is NO CHANGE. Let me say that again, NO CHANGE.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

There is no shortage of pilots in the US. Not only that, but there's no shortage of QUALIFIED pilots in the US. Can't say the same about many ICAO states... As such, there's no safety reason to change the rule in the US, only economic. Is that a good enough reason to potentially jeopardize public safety? I don't think so.

Freight Dog: This just isn't so. The regional airline F/O's are all qualified but they all lack the experienced of their senior captains. Klako is a very experienced Regional captain and I'm sure his experience enhances safety to a great degree at his airline. If he has to retire, it will be a great loss to the passengers and their safety. Experience comes one day at a time and it can not be obtained any faster than that. The LEX accident was the result of a lack of experience. The Calie accident was from a lack of experience. The LIT accident was from a lack of experience. The A300 accident in NYC was from a lack of experience. And not long ago my two F/O's were fully ready to allow me to taxi to and takeoff from a runway that was too short. The reason: A lack of experience and knowledge regarding the fact that the last portion of that runway was closed for construction. It was the experience of a senior captain that prevented what could have been a serious situation. Just the other day, I chose to fly the leg to SFO because I was well aware of the possibility of flying close parallel visuals to the 28’s. And sure enough it was just that. My formation experience told me that the guy in the left seat must fly that approach to 28R. Then there was the visual approach to 35L at DEN, when my international F/O lined up on the left side for the 34’s. All of these situations demonstrate crew concept and how it is experience that counts more than anything else.

So let me say this for certain: EXPERIENCE COUNTS, AND THERE IS NOTHING ELSE LIKE IT THAT WILL ENHANCE SAFETY TO SUCH A DEGREE.

 

[Patriot328]

Freight Dog: This just isn't so. The regional airline F/O's are all qualified but they all lack the experienced of their senior captains. Klako is a very experienced Regional captain and I'm sure his experience enhances safety to a great degree at his airline. If he has to retire, it will be a great loss to the passengers and their safety. Experience comes one day at a time and it can not be obtained any faster than that. The LEX accident was the result of a lack of experience. The Calie accident was from a lack of experience. The LIT accident was from a lack of experience. The A300 accident in NYC was from a lack of experience. And not long ago my two F/O's were fully ready to allow me to taxi to and takeoff from a runway that was too short. The reason: A lack of experience and knowledge regarding the fact that the last portion of that runway was closed for construction. It was the experience of a senior captain that prevented what could have been a serious situation. Just the other day, I chose to fly the leg to SFO because I was well aware of the possibility of flying close parallel visuals to the 28’s. And sure enough it was just that. My formation experience told me that the guy in the left seat must fly that approach to 28R. Then there was the visual approach to 35L at DEN, when my international F/O lined up on the left side for the 34’s. All of these situations demonstrate crew concept and how it is experience that counts more than anything else.

So let me say this for certain: EXPERIENCE COUNTS, AND THERE IS NOTHING ELSE LIKE IT THAT WILL ENHANCE SAFETY TO SUCH A DEGREE.

How anyone even sits next to you with an ego so off the scale is a miracle. That post is equal to 5 posts of klako's bullsh*t. I'm glad you're out there single-handedly keeping United's fleet flying. I'd love to see your FO's expression when there's a unexpected parallel approach into SFO on "his" leg and you have to take that big ole bird from away from that little child that's had the pleasure of sharing your cockpit.

 

[zonker]

Freight Dog: This just isn't so. The regional airline F/O's are all qualified but they all lack the experienced of their senior captains. Klako is a very experienced Regional captain and I'm sure his experience enhances safety to a great degree at his airline. If he has to retire, it will be a great loss to the passengers and their safety. Experience comes one day at a time and it can not be obtained any faster than that. The LEX accident was the result of a lack of experience. The Calie accident was from a lack of experience. The LIT accident was from a lack of experience. The A300 accident in NYC was from a lack of experience. And not long ago my two F/O's were fully ready to allow me to taxi to and takeoff from a runway that was too short. The reason: A lack of experience and knowledge regarding the fact that the last portion of that runway was closed for construction. It was the experience of a senior captain that prevented what could have been a serious situation. Just the other day, I chose to fly the leg to SFO because I was well aware of the possibility of flying close parallel visuals to the 28’s. And sure enough it was just that. My formation experience told me that the guy in the left seat must fly that approach to 28R. Then there was the visual approach to 35L at DEN, when my international F/O lined up on the left side for the 34’s. All of these situations demonstrate crew concept and how it is experience that counts more than anything else.

So let me say this for certain: EXPERIENCE COUNTS, AND THERE IS NOTHING ELSE LIKE IT THAT WILL ENHANCE SAFETY TO SUCH A DEGREE.

:laugh:

What a fool you are.

Like I said... Enjoy your retirement. The rule may change, but it's over for you. Thank goodness for that. :beer:

 

[pilotyip]

There is growing shortage of qualified pilots in the US. This will much like the redefinition seen on the entry-level jobs over the past 18 months. With the recalls at the majors continuing, with the majors starting to look for new hires, and growth in the Fractional and corporate job market, pressure will be placed upon the existing pilot pool. We will start seeing the effects in the spring as the competitive mins at the upper level airlines are redefined.

 

[Flybynite]

Why are you young guys so afraid of changes to the FAA medical? Seems like more stringent medical qualifications will weed out the weak and give you a faster upgrade. The old guys won't even be able to walk up the stairs to get to the doctors office so their medicals will expire, faster upgrade. You young studs will prosper and increase flying safety. It's all about safety isn't it? If you can't pass a real physical you need to retire and let the young healthy guys have your seat. I don't want you endangering my family because you can't pass a physical. It is all about safety isn't it?

 

[jbDC9]

The regional airline F/O's are all qualified but they all lack the experienced of their senior captains. Klako is a very experienced Regional captain and I'm sure his experience enhances safety to a great degree at his airline. If he has to retire, it will be a great loss to the passengers and their safety. Experience comes one day at a time and it can not be obtained any faster than that. The LEX accident was the result of a lack of experience. The Calie accident was from a lack of experience. The LIT accident was from a lack of experience. The A300 accident in NYC was from a lack of experience. And not long ago my two F/O's were fully ready to allow me to taxi to and takeoff from a runway that was too short. The reason: A lack of experience and knowledge regarding the fact that the last portion of that runway was closed for construction. It was the experience of a senior captain that prevented what could have been a serious situation. Just the other day, I chose to fly the leg to SFO because I was well aware of the possibility of flying close parallel visuals to the 28’s. And sure enough it was just that. My formation experience told me that the guy in the left seat must fly that approach to 28R. Then there was the visual approach to 35L at DEN, when my international F/O lined up on the left side for the 34’s. All of these situations demonstrate crew concept and how it is experience that counts more than anything else.

So let me say this for certain: EXPERIENCE COUNTS, AND THERE IS NOTHING ELSE LIKE IT THAT WILL ENHANCE SAFETY TO SUCH A DEGREE.

Wow, that's quite an ego you have there Captain. Or shall we bow down and address you as "Master and Commander" or some other grand title that befits your awe inspiring experience and status? And how about this, were you born with 20,000 hrs PIC or did you have to do time in the right seat to gain some of that precious experience? But alas, your profile shows only 17,500 hr... and that's after 37 years? That isn't much, sounds like you're a green, inexperienced low timer to me... but what do I know, I'm only 37 with 15,000 hrs. Just a young, inexperienced junior punk, right?

Seriously, why'd you even bother with a post like that? We all know that the only thing you really care about is the cash... that and keeping your almighty ass in the left seat so that your ego may be properly stroked.

What a tool...