Age 60 informal poll

[Flopgut]

Fired means that your employment is ended against your will.

Retiring is generally ending your employment on your own terms or when you are no longer capable of doing the job.

At 60, you're no longer capable of doing the job. That's the rule, it would be NO different at 65, 70 or any age.

Other professional employment endeavors usually provide for a certain earnings level upon completion of extensive education and training. Many trades "break out" upon completion of a prescribed cirriculum. In either case, how much you make post trng/education is less a function of how long you've been doing it, and more a function of how hard you work. Airline pilots don't do that. Seniority dictates that in our profession you wait decades past what is normal in other professions for your chance at the best dollars and lifestyle. And I think most of us are fine with that, except when one small group steps out and wants to take more and screw everyone else! Add that to the: one bad contract, merger, BK, recession, strike, etc and we're rolled back to zero deal, It's simply too much to ask to change retirement age.

 

[Flopgut]

As I have always said, this change will come in a way no one is expecting. Things are moving very fast on the change.

Andy: To answer your question about furlough, I was furloughed twice for 4-years and during that time ALPA was trying to change the rule. Their actions really didn't bother me.

Now lets talk about you and how tough it is. You have just accepted recall to only go on militry leave. This is all part of your plan to become a two career double dipper that takes advantage of the military LOA laws. And yet you find fault with me for just wanting to support my family. You really have no idea what is like to be placed in a position of being fired for just turning age 60.

I'm sure Andy would rather the military not be the forte of his career these days. He's got Whiteford's failed "save the A fund" crusade to thank (in part) for that! Now you want to exile him longer with your "save UndauntedFlyers' light airplane and comfortable lifestyle" crusade!

Yeah.....Military leave is such a hustle! It's not like there are ever any wars or anything?!

 

[Chest Rockwell]

That is absolutely, 100% retarded. There's just no other word for it.

So you agree that UF is being fired? I guess he won't get any of his benefits? Nobody that gets fired gets benefits.

Retiring, according to you, is ending your employment when you are no longer capable of doing your job. Why don't you just prove my point for me??
That is exactly what the UF's and Klakos of the world would do if left to their own devices. They would fly until they felt that they were incapable of doing their job. Problem is, they would be the last two people on the freaking globe to recognize that they needed to hang it up.

PIPE

If you choose to resort to childish namecalling, I believe that you have only identified yourself as challenged.

If one cannot do the job they should retire, if not be fired. A baseless, government mandated end to one's career is not retirement. Benefits in retirement are not guaranteed nor are they consistent from carrier to carrier. You seem to know UF and Klako well enough to Judge them quite harshly. For all I know you have spent a good deal of time with both and those judgements may be warranted. But you are far from capable of determining the values and motivations of all who are pro change.

 

[Freight Dog]

Now lets talk about you and how tough it is. You have just accepted recall to only go on militry leave. This is all part of your plan to become a two career double dipper that takes advantage of the military LOA laws. And yet you find fault with me for just wanting to support my family. You really have no idea what is like to be placed in a position of being fired for just turning age 60.

You continue to show what an arrogant, ignorant, pompous a$$ you are.

You should be ashamed of yourself and you should apologize for these remarks. I think you should also thank Andy for his service, as well as all of your fellow crewmembers who "double dip" by serving in the military.

You've really been showing your true colors lately UF, and you would really do this industry a huge favor by just going away.

 

[Chest Rockwell]

At 60, you're no longer capable of doing the job. That's the rule, it would be NO different at 65, 70 or any age.

Poor argument. If you can pass the medical and the proficiency and line checks, you are obviously capable. There is just an bogus rule that mandates that your employment is terminated at age 60, which is in debate. I will partially agree with your "NO difference at 65 and 70", but I am certain that most would go out on their own terms at or before 65.

If the pilot can no longer do the job, his/her fellow pilots must speak up, regardless if they are 25 or 60+.

 

[Flopgut]

Poor argument. If you can pass the medical and the proficiency and line checks, you are obviously capable. There is just an bogus rule that mandates that your employment is terminated at age 60, which is in debate. I will partially agree with your "NO difference at 65 and 70", but I am certain that most would go out on their own terms at or before 65.

If the pilot can no longer do the job, his/her fellow pilots must speak up, regardless if they are 25 or 60+.

If you can pass trng and medicals that means you can still fly, but not FAR 121 PIC. There will be an age limit to that and it will be equally "bogus" no matter what it is, I'm glad you agree. I disagree with you that most will go "at or before 65". I'm certain if we change this once, we'll suffer the cries for age change again. Fix the financial concerns, then they'll retire.

 

[pipe]

If you choose to resort to childish namecalling, I believe that you have only identified yourself as challenged.

If one cannot do the job they should retire, if not be fired. A baseless, government mandated end to one's career is not retirement. Benefits in retirement are not guaranteed nor are they consistent from carrier to carrier. You seem to know UF and Klako well enough to Judge them quite harshly. For all I know you have spent a good deal of time with both and those judgements may be warranted. But you are far from capable of determining the values and motivations of all who are pro change.

Didn't call anyone a name. Reread.

 

[dsee8driver]

Guys/Gals....

I myself stand to benefit if the rule is NOT changed. Reading all the posts regarding safety and monetary issues I am left to wonder this. ICAO has changed their age limits, therefore, international carriers will have over 60 pilots flying in the US. Now I'm left to wonder that if the FAA does not change the rule to follow ICAO and blame it on safety, will our govement come out and issue a safety warning to Americans flying international carriers about the age 60 pilots and how will this sit with foreign goverments? We get warnings now issued on other carriers maintenance safety so why not one on pilot issues.

 

[SuperFLUF]

...........And yet you find fault with me for just wanting to support my family. You really have no idea what is like to be placed in a position of being fired for just turning age 60.

OK, this is too much. FIRED? Enough with the junior high school girlie drama queen act.

You have known that this day was coming since you began working. If you counted on the age being changed to fund your life you are a fool.

Losing you pension truly sucks and is a travesty, BUT if you counted on any more than the PBGC mins for your retirement it was a gamble and again you are a fool. If you didn't educate yourself on how much of your pension was actually guaranteed then you are a fool. (see a recurring theme here?)

If you can not provide for your family after the date that you have known you would retire for the past 30+ years (you did start saving for retirement as soon as you got your first job right?) then YOU have let them down and you are a fool.

Yes, an arbitrary age for retirement in theory is discrimination. Yes, I believe that it will probably change in the next few years, BUT your piss poor attitude about the detrimental effects to the majority of your fellow professional aviators is selfish and pompus.

 

[Bake]

Panel Splits on Raising Airline Pilot Retirement Age (Update2)

By John Hughes

Nov. 30 (Bloomberg) -- A U.S. government panel couldn't agree whether the retirement age for airline pilots should be raised to 65 from 60, calling the issue ``contentious.''

If the Federal Aviation Administration does lift the age, pilots who are already retired shouldn't be allowed to return to work, the panel said in a report to the agency in Washington.

The split leaves FAA Administrator Marion Blakey without an industry consensus as she decides whether to change the agency's 47-year practice of forcing pilots to retire at age 60. Prodded by some pilots and lawmakers to change the age limit, she named the panel on Sept. 27 to advise her by late November.

``It's basically a tie,'' said Washington-based consultant Clay Foushee, a former vice president of operations at Northwest Airlines Corp. ``It doesn't really help clarify the matter at all. It's a very politically difficult situation for the administrator.''

Pilots who have had pension benefits pared as U.S. airlines struggled financially have been pushing to work longer to make up at least some of the difference. Younger pilots who want more opportunities for promotions tend to oppose a higher age.

No Recommendation

``The age 60 issue remains contentious for the commercial aviation industry,'' said the panelists, who included airline representatives and pilot union leaders. Their report made no recommendation on raising the age and devoted roughly equal space to the pro and con views of a change.

The FAA received the report yesterday and hasn't released it publicly, spokeswoman Laura Brown said. ``We appreciate the hard work of the committee,'' Brown said. ``We're reviewing it.'' Bloomberg News obtained a copy today.

Six panel members opposed raising the age, including four representatives of the Air Line Pilots Association, the world's largest pilot union. The panelists from AMR Corp.'s American Airlines and its Allied Pilots Association also opposed any change.

The four panelists who favored raising the age were from Southwest Airlines Co., JetBlue Airways Corp., the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association and a group called Airline Pilots Against Age Discrimination.

``This breaks down along some predictable lines,'' said William Voss, chief executive officer of the Flight Safety Foundation in Alexandria, Virginia. ``This isn't going to help Marion Blakey very much.''

Neutral Leaders

Some panelists didn't endorse either view in the report, including the co-chairs, Jim May, president of the Air Transport Association airline industry trade group and Duane Woerth, president of the Airline Pilots Association. Both men declined to comment through their spokesmen.

A representative of the Aerospace Medical Association, filed a separate opinion that ``age should not be the sole criterion'' for disqualifying airline pilots. The advisory panel began with 14 industry members and added two more, according to its report.

The group's lone recommendation is that the FAA not change the age retroactively. ``Any element of retroactivity would add more complexity to the issue and make it almost impossible for any agreement on implementation,'' according to the report.

Pressure to raise the age has come from U.S. lawmakers such as Oklahoma Republican Senator James Inhofe, himself a 72-year- old private pilot. The Senate Appropriations Committee in July approved lifting the age to 65 as part of a $69 billion budget bill. That legislation still hasn't been enacted into law.

Other Countries

Countries such as Australia that allow older pilots to fly and wanted them to be able to cross other nations' airspace also want the U.S. to lift the age.

The International Civil Aviation Organization, which recommends global air-safety standards, adopted a standard that nations should allow pilots to fly to age 65 as long as the other pilot in the cockpit is younger than 60. The change took effect Nov. 23, which means older pilots on foreign airlines can fly in U.S. skies, if allowed by their carriers and governments.

Airline pilots currently flying over age 60 include 18 with Japan Airlines Corp., 20 with Qantas Airways Ltd., 35 at SAS Group and 20 at Air New Zealand Ltd., according to an Oct. 12 letter from the International Federation of Air Lines Pilots Associations. The letter was included in the report.

``Age alone is a very poor discriminator of risk of incapacitation,'' said Voss, former director of ICAO's air navigation bureau who worked on the age-60 issue. ``We should end the debate on what the right age is and start a new debate on how do we evaluate risk of incapacitation with current, modern medical methods.''

Foushee, a consultant with Zuckert Scoutt and Rasenberger LLP in Washington, said he had hoped the FAA panelists' decisions ``would be made more on technical and physiological grounds, rather than political grounds.''

To contact the reporter on this story: John Hughes in Washington [email protected] .
Last Updated: November 30, 200618:38 EST