Age 60 informal poll

[luckytohaveajob]

Congressman Jim Gibbons in serious trouble

If Congressman R-Nev. Jim Gibbons gets prosecuted on criminal charges age 60 is in serious jeopardy. H.65 is not out of the House of Rep. Transportation committee yet and with the author of H.65 facing charges this could all come to a screeching halt.

Looking forward to the DA pressing charges!!!!!!!!

http://www.kvbc.com/Global/story.asp?S=5610655&nav=15MV

 

[Duke of Ale]

The age 60 thing is not a law. It is a rule. If it were a law then it could be challenged as being discriminatory. But a rule by the FAA is a rule. The rule needs to be changed. I am well over 60 and have been flying a Citation X since I retired. I can still outlast the younguns on an overnight !!!! Some of us can keep on going, others can't. If you want to retire early, by all means do so. I am doing something I love. My hobby. It just happens to also be my job.

 

[Cyclone]

Duke

There are plenty of guys who can keep it going. Unfortunately a lot of you old timers can't. How do we get them to hang up there spurs when it's time...ie when they are no longer really with it enough to do the job. please don't tell me the PC and physical...besides an age rule what other means do you propose. We need something to make sure they can still do the job. If not Age 60 then what? I am all ears for a serious idea. What would work better than age 60?

 

[3BCat]

There are plenty of guys who can keep it going. Unfortunately a lot of you old timers can't. How do we get them to hang up there spurs when it's time...ie when they are no longer really with it enough to do the job. please don't tell me the PC and physical...besides an age rule what other means do you propose. We need something to make sure they can still do the job. If not Age 60 then what? I am all ears for a serious idea. What would work better than age 60?

Lets just use dog years. It makes as much sense as age 60. You know, dog years...1 year for a dog is like seven years for a pilot. If you're a big dog, you are physiologically closer to the big porch than if you are a little dog.

For that matter, lets just treat pilots like the dogs they are...Age 60 is the only reason we have aviation safety, right?. If an old dog is on his retirement flight, has to enter a hold for weather, and the ole boy turns sixty in the hold (this could really happen), I say we scramble the intercept fighters, and shoot 'em down in the overall interest of public safety. After all, being 60 is a safety issue right?

 

[Falconjet]

The age 60 thing is not a law. It is a rule. If it were a law then it could be challenged as being discriminatory. But a rule by the FAA is a rule. The rule needs to be changed. I am well over 60 and have been flying a Citation X since I retired. I can still outlast the younguns on an overnight !!!! Some of us can keep on going, others can't. If you want to retire early, by all means do so. I am doing something I love. My hobby. It just happens to also be my job.

See, there is your proof that you can fly in the US past 60.

Just can't do it for a 121 outfit.

FJ

 

[Sluggo_63]

There is actually some data that can be mined for comparison of accident/incapacitation rates of over-60 pilots versus the average for their peers:

1) Operations under 121 before "emergency" imposition of the Rule;

2) Operations by "grandfathered" pilots after the 135-Scheduled regionals were FAR119-bridged into FAR 121.

While we're at it, let's gather all the data we can from the legacy airlines on their over 60 engineers (from back when they had 3 man aircraft). Let's compare how much an over 60 engineer called in sick off a trip compared to his younger contemporaries. These guys were always sick and always calling off trips. I would like to see that data used during the study of the fitness of over-60 pilots.

 

[Klako]

The age 60 thing is not a law. It is a rule. If it were a law then it could be challenged as being discriminatory. But a rule by the FAA is a rule. The rule needs to be changed. I am well over 60 and have been flying a Citation X since I retired. I can still outlast the younguns on an overnight !!!! Some of us can keep on going, others can't. If you want to retire early, by all means do so. I am doing something I love. My hobby. It just happens to also be my job.

RIGHT ON DUKE!

 

[pilotyip]

Ditto right on, go duke, you have truely got it figured out.

 

[FoxHunter]

While we're at it, let's gather all the data we can from the legacy airlines on their over 60 engineers (from back when they had 3 man aircraft). Let's compare how much an over 60 engineer called in sick off a trip compared to his younger contemporaries. These guys were always sick and always calling off trips. I would like to see that data used during the study of the fitness of over-60 pilots.

Hmm!! Guys forced back into a position they really don't want to be. You couple that with the fact that many of those pilots have a very large sick bank that will be lost once they do retire. :beer: Most sick leave by over age 60 S/Os is probably due to eye problems, they can't see going too work.

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

The airline industry is littered with sob stories -- especially in the last 20 years and the retirement age has never changed. When Eastern and Pam Am failed I didn’t see any mad rush to change the retirement age back then – most guys went back out and looked for new jobs.

There is something very sad that the guys retiring don’t seem to understand -- having an airline job is not the only job around nor is it their divine right to have one. If they need the money, there are other jobs out there both flying and non-flying. In fact, due to the crappy pay and volatility at most of the legacies now, I would say that well over 50% of the co-pilots I fly with are working on alternate professions. Why are the senior guys immune to this fact? Yes, the industry has changed. Since the senior guys have experienced some bad luck; instead of making some positive changes to the profession like getting better pay and retirements, now look for an easy target and are seeking to take out their aggression on the lower part of the seniority list. Their agenda is not only to completely erase an upper retirement age, but to keep their low seniority numbers and high paying jobs intact. Make no mistake about it, this is class warfare pitting pilots against pilots – the have’s verses the have not’s.

Moreover, this has got to be one of the most poorly planned out pieces of legislation to ever hit the airlines. Watch out junior guys – a new b-scale is coming to an airline near you -- courtesy of the senior captains that want to abrogate our seniority lists and hold on to their high paying jobs another 5 plus years.

Here are a few unknowns these guys don’t have any idea of the impact to our careers:

1. Seniority progression – How will basically eliminating any retirements for five years or more impact the lower ¾ of the seniority list? Junior crewmembers at slow or shrinking airlines will be hit especially hard. SWA, don’t think your immune. You’re losing most of your hedges next year. The end result is many guys will find themselves working the additional five years just to make back the money they lost in the first place due to delayed promotions and stagnation. The guys sitting in the most senior seats will be the lotto winners in all of this and will come at the junior guy’s expense.
2. Retirements – How will the early-out penalties work out in coming contracts?
3. Pay – You think our historically high pay scales are due to management liking us – no – it’s due mainly to the age 60 retirement. Stretch out the retirement age and watch the pressure to either reduce our wages outright or continue to let inflation eat away at them.
4. Safety – Common sense dictates that our flying skills diminish as we age. As much as we want to believe we can fly forever, all you got to do is pick up a newspaper to see how American’s are more overweight and out of shape on a national average than ever. Are there some guys that can make it – Sure – but this national law must be written for the lowest common denominator. Our commercial aviation safety demands it.
5. Lawsuits – What happens to the poor SOB that misses the age change by one day or for that matter find themselves in the 60-65 bracket when the retirement changes. We all better count on a class action lawsuit from this group for them to get back on the property. I, for one, think they have a pretty good shot at winning. If they are successful, then where and to what job, position or seniority numbers do they come back to?
6. Union cohesiveness – This law will be one of the most divisive since B-scale hit in the 80’s. At carriers where there has been basically no progression for the last five years and then adding on another five years of stagnation will make for especially ugly relations and low morale between the senior and junior.
7. Longevity -- How will flying an additional five years of all-nighters and spending five more years in a stress filled environment impact our golden years? Is this the fly to you die rule.

I’m not trying to change the older guy’s viewpoint on this. I can’t. Their selfishness and greed are too much for them to clearly see the long term implications to the industry. All they can see are the dollars in their wallets. What they can’t see is the economic harm they are seeking to impose on both the lower part of the seniority list and the profession itself.

If you don’t like the fraud the senior guy’s are attempting to pull, then write your Congressman and the FAA. Let them know your thoughts. This can be defeated.

Age 65 -- good for a few and bad for the many.

AA767AV8TOR