Age 60 in Corporate Aviation

[sydeseet]

The "age 60 rule" has become a hot topic lately with a survey from ALPA making the rounds. This makes me curious if any corporate operators big or small require their pilots to retire at a preset age.

Anyone?

 

[semperfido]

a mixed bag...there are few that still do, but most probably don't. those that still do will probably change in the coming years.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Im all for it.

Get the crust out.

.

 

[2000flyer]

Let the pilot, not the regulators, decide when they retire. If a pilot can hold their medical and remain skillful, I welcome their experience...be it corporate or airline.

2000Flyer

 

[User546]

I know that Conoco/Phillips retires their guys at age 60.

They typically retire them at age 58, then give them 2 years of pay to compensate them to age 60.

 

[hogdriver00]

Let the pilot, not the regulators, decide when they retire. If a pilot can hold their medical and remain skillful, I welcome their experience...be it corporate or airline.

2000Flyer

In theory that is a good idea but in practice I don't think it works. That assumes that a PILOT knows and is willing to except what is best for him and his co-workers. There is a discussion on the general board about the Houston GIII that gets into the psychology of the "Go Around". The question is asked about being inside the FAF and something doesn't seem right but the pilots press the issue thinking that their superior skill will save the day.



Most pilots are type A and don't want to except that their skills are deteriorating or that they are slowing down. I think the biggest issue is technology. It's usually the older guys that fly the Gulfstreams and Globals based on their years of experience. Sometimes all the gadgets are not a good fit. Don't get me wrong, I don't mean every pilot over 60 is a mishap waiting to happen.



I had a sim partner at GLEX recurrent that was close to 60 and was a CP as well. He was scary. Always way behind in either seat.



Many public companies won't have a set rule due to age discrimination lawsuits but will make it to your benefit to leave at a certain age.



Hope I didn't offend anyone.



Hog

 

[bart]

I fly with two guys over 60, both retired airline pilots. One is sharp as a razor, the other can't even trouble shoot an audio panel when he can't transmit. I suspect the second is honestly in early alzheimers. So it is really a mixed bag and up to guys giving check rides to scrutinize. Look at Chuck Yeager and Bob Hoover. It is an individual issue, with no blanket age making a whole lot of sense.

 

[PMVULB AvMgr]

Out of 10 pilots in the department, 6 are age 60 or over! And I would happily put my life into anyone of their able hands! The oldest is 68 (he looks like he's 51), and is as with it as people 25 years his junior. It all depends on the individual, you can't say that at a certain age an individual goes from being an able and treasured asset to a has-been.

 

[aeolian]

Out of 10 pilots in the department, 6 are age 60 or over! And I would happily put my life into anyone of their able hands! The oldest is 68 (he looks like he's 51), and is as with it as people 25 years his junior. It all depends on the individual, you can't say that at a certain age an individual goes from being an able and treasured asset to a has-been.

my emphasis...

And therein lies the problem for which their are two solutions. Apply an arbitrary but consistent standard, ie. the airline age 60 rule or establish objective and/or subjective testing which begins at some equally arbitrary moment in time.

The problem is magnified by the fact we are not plumbers and our errors can be costly. Nor can we be legitimately expected to self police. In the case of dementia driven loss of skill, the pilot may be the last to know or the least willing to acknowledge.

There are clear examples of pilots well past 60 or 65 or 70 with skills undiminished and there are 30 year old pilots who otta be plumbing toilets. So the question seems....do you want to establish an arbitrary age or depend upon the potentially arbitrary determination of some medical practicioner (who labors under no such constraint)?

No answers here Boy's, just this same old pile of questions.

 

[m3pilot1]

ConocoPhillips canceled the age 60 retirement. No more 2 years pay. I think DuPont is the only company with this option anymore.

 

[soarby007]

I flly with a retired airline pilot and he is similar to the comment about not being able to trouble shoot an audio panel. The other night he gets the flashlight out to read the FMS. After about 10 minutes of observing this idiot, I ask him "why don't you turn the lights on". He looks like a deer in the headlights and I reach over and turn the panel lights on. "Thanks", he says. The company makes this guy a co-captain, but he can't figure out how much fuel the airplane holds.

I'm not for auto-retire at 60, but there needs to be a way for evaluating.

 

[G4G5]

Let's be honest here, no two individuals are the same and over the course of 60 years people's skill level's tend to decline at different rates. The problem for mgt is twp fold: how to determine when that individual can no longer preform to the level expected. Then the even harder question is, what can you do with them?

If a person passes a first class medical every 6 months the FAA has deemed them fit to a certain level. Does your company want to impose higher standards across the board? I have worked for flt departments that have used a modified nasa physical. Running on the tred mill with a continuious increase in grade all while have more electrodes hooked to you then a porcupine has quills.

If a person can pass a FSI check then they are assumed to be capable to serve as PIC. Your company has the right to set training programs with FSI. I worked for a flt department that would not allow FSI to let you train for the emergency first. Ex. today we do Hyd, and Elect so you expect to get hyd and elect failures. Not at this place, first day could be V1 cuts or single eng raw data NDB (and yes they are a big depart with G4'and G5's).

If mgt was looking to get rid of someone the sim ride was flown with a company check airman and video taped. If the guy passed great if not, he was offered the "package". You will be glad to know the CP was fired and the place has done a 180 but my point is: the combination of the NASA flt physical and the check ride from Hel are both tools that I have seen used in the past.

A blanket age 60 rule is not the answer. heck if I could do it I would go out at 55 but with one more on the way this summer, that's not going to happen. Their is no answer. Your current CEO and Aviation director will set the policy of the week.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

It might help if companys went back to the policy of making it attractive to retire.

Offer the older guys attractive packages and take care of them. It allows then some security and allows the department to grow some younger folks, new blood.

Unfortunatly this seems rare anymore and many older guys may hang on simply because they have to.

 

[semperfido]

It might help if companys went back to the policy of making it attractive to retire.

Offer the older guys attractive packages and take care of them. It allows then some security and allows the department to grow some younger folks, new blood.

Unfortunatly this seems rare anymore and many older guys may hang on simply because they have to.

of course this is the very best idea and it is also correct.

 

[G100driver]

I know of a very prominate well followed flight department that 3 of their 4 guys are over 57 with 1 over 63. I have personally flown with 2 of them and they do a great job.

Just a matter of the person.

The FSI senerio of passing check rides is bogus because I do not know anyone who not passed a recurrent 91. I believe FSI is scared to death of this when come dealing with guys over 60.

 

[ultrarunner]

The "age 60 rule" has become a hot topic lately with a survey from ALPA making the rounds. This makes me curious if any corporate operators big or small require their pilots to retire at a preset age.

Anyone?

Regardless of what some folks have posted above about some corporations "requiring" an age 60 retirement. I don't believe that is the case. Age is a protected class from discriminatory practices. And right now 121 carriers are the only companies allowed to discriminate at this age for pilots (excluding FE's).

If companies like those mentioned above actually have this policy in place I would be very surprised...since it's illegal.

What has been my experience in talking with some folks locally that work for some very prominent flight departments, is that as a pilot approches 60 they are offered a package that will take them several more years out in age. This is a big fat bone to intice retirement. They are, however, under no obligation to take it.

Most companies that operate this way will structure their compensation and retirement plans where there would be no financial advantage to working longer.

As a result, most retire.

 

[Bandit60]

Regardless of what some folks have posted above about some corporations "requiring" an age 60 retirement. I don't believe that is the case. Age is a protected class from discriminatory practices. And right now 121 carriers are the only companies allowed to discriminate at this age for pilots (excluding FE's).

If companies like those mentioned above actually have this policy in place I would be very surprised...since it's illegal.

What has been my experience in talking with some folks locally that work for some very prominent flight departments, is that as a pilot approches 60 they are offered a package that will take them several more years out in age. This is a big fat bone to intice retirement. They are, however, under no obligation to take it.

Most companies that operate this way will structure their compensation and retirement plans where there would be no financial advantage to working longer.

As a result, most retire.

Most companies that implement retirement age's do it thru lawyers. I know for a fact that one company has a retirement age of 62. It really isn't manditory but, If you retire at that age you get a very nice package. If you dont leave at that age, you get nothing. Just like you said.

Besides when I get to that age, if they offer me that type of package..I'm all over it. If I am in good physical condition then I will use my retirement to my advantage.

 

[2000flyer]

I know of a very prominate well followed flight department that 3 of their 4 guys are over 57 with 1 over 63. I have personally flown with 2 of them and they do a great job.

Just a matter of the person.

The FSI senerio of passing check rides is bogus because I do not know anyone who not passed a recurrent 91. I believe FSI is scared to death of this when come dealing with guys over 60.

Hmmmmm...could it be ????