Age 60/65 Compromise

[Andy]

Andy: Thanks for the update.

Thanks; I've enjoyed rallying those who are opposed to a change.
The pro-change crowd is much more organized than us. Hopefully, my posts here resulted in a couple hundred anti-change comments for the ARC on the DOT website and a few letters/faxes/phone calls to our representatives in Washington.

Thanks to everyone who took the time to write their opposition to any change.
But my biggest thanks goes out to Mark Foley, Tom DeLay, George Allen, Conrad Burns, Rick Santorum, Rush Limbaugh, Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Karl Rove, and W. They're the ones who ensured that this change won't pass - for now.
Funny, Conrad Burns and Rick Santorum were two of the dozen Senators who signed that letter to FAA Administrator Blakey.

 

[zonker]

But my biggest thanks goes out to Mark Foley, Tom DeLay, George Allen, Conrad Burns, Rick Santorum, Rush Limbaugh, Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Karl Rove, and W. They're the ones who ensured that this change won't pass - for now.
Funny, Conrad Burns and Rick Santorum were two of the dozen Senators who signed that letter to FAA Administrator Blakey.

:laugh:

I couldn't agree more! Thanks for all the info Andy. It's much appreciated.

Someone should start a website. Get the Pro 60 crowd as organized as much as the Pro Change crowd is.

 

[Klako]

Pot, meet kettle.

I started this thread to offer those pilots who want to change the rule an opportunity, an opening. Instead, you want everything. YOUR seat for an additional five years. Like you own it. Unbridled greed on your part..

Who is the greedy one? Just ask the majority of the public who are used to waiting their turn in life's real world. Where is the real greed in the age 60 rule debate?

From a disinterested point of view, a reasonable person would view the junior pilot coveting what does not belong to him as the greedy one. Possession is nine tenths of the law. Promotions should not be gained at the expense of others.

The reasonable man on the street could only conclude that the FAA's current age 60 rule is just plain wrong. That conclusion is obvious because there is the overwhelming evidence that a person’s age is not the sole determination of one’s ability to safely perform the duties of an airline pilot, that physical and mental decline cannot be measured by age alone, that we have all observed that some people decline in their physical and mental abilities faster that others but the experience factor has to be considered. Everyone since the Wright Brothers has observed that the more experienced pilot is likely to be the safer pilot. Though highly experienced pilots may suffer some varying amount decline in physical abilities as they age, their experience could more than compensate for any slight physical decline in performance.

The reasonable man on the street will see the junior pilot's exaggerated claim that all pilots over age 60 are unsafe as merely a smoke screen, that their real motive is institutionalized age discrimination and an accelerated job advancement scheme for junior pilots.

 

[rtmcfi]

Who is the greedy one? Just ask the majority of the public who are used to waiting their turn in life's real world. Where is the real greed in the age 60 rule debate?

The reasonable man on the street will see the junior pilot's exaggerated claim that all pilots over age 60 are unsafe as merely a smoke screen, that their real motive is institutionalized age discrimination and an accelerated job advancement scheme for junior pilots.

First off, shouldn't you be in bed Grandpa??

The real greed here is coming from the infirm, elderly crowd. The pro-65 folks are trying to change the rules at the end of the game. The only scheming here is being done by the likes of you and your codger cronies. You can still go to the fracs...

 

[Klako]

First off, shouldn't you be in bed Grandpa??

The real greed here is coming from the infirm, elderly crowd. The pro-65 folks are trying to change the rules at the end of the game. The only scheming here is being done by the likes of you and your codger cronies. You can still go to the fracs...

Thank you for proving my point.

 

[Andy]

Someone should start a website. Get the Pro 60 crowd as organized as much as the Pro Change crowd is.

Oh man, you're giving me ideas. I live in the DC area.

By the way, you should've left the PAC comment in there. Like it or not, PAC money helps to gain access in Washington.
Here's a list of who ALPA gave money to: http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/pacgot.asp?strID=C00035451&Cycle=2006

Unfortunately, ALPA has been a bit schizophrenic when it comes to the age 60 issue.

 

[General Lee]

Who is the greedy one? Just ask the majority of the public who are used to waiting their turn in life's real world. Where is the real greed in the age 60 rule debate?

From a disinterested point of view, a reasonable person would view the junior pilot coveting what does not belong to him as the greedy one. Possession is nine tenths of the law. Promotions should not be gained at the expense of others.

The reasonable man on the street could only conclude that the FAA's current age 60 rule is just plain wrong. That conclusion is obvious because there is the overwhelming evidence that a person’s age is not the sole determination of one’s ability to safely perform the duties of an airline pilot, that physical and mental decline cannot be measured by age alone, that we have all observed that some people decline in their physical and mental abilities faster that others but the experience factor has to be considered. Everyone since the Wright Brothers has observed that the more experienced pilot is likely to be the safer pilot. Though highly experienced pilots may suffer some varying amount decline in physical abilities as they age, their experience could more than compensate for any slight physical decline in performance.

The reasonable man on the street will see the junior pilot's exaggerated claim that all pilots over age 60 are unsafe as merely a smoke screen, that their real motive is institutionalized age discrimination and an accelerated job advancement scheme for junior pilots.

You knew the rules going into this Klako, and you never stood up and said to all of the captains senior to you "Hey George, you still ROCK as a pilot, please stick around and not allow me to bid better trips or vacation for another 5 years." You never did it, and you will have to abide by the same RULE. Sorry. If you have forgotten about that "rule", then you are already becoming senile and you need to give up flying for all of our sakes.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Deerkiller]

Who is the greedy one? Just ask the majority of the public who are used to waiting their turn in life's real world. Where is the real greed in the age 60 rule debate?

From a disinterested point of view, a reasonable person would view the junior pilot coveting what does not belong to him as the greedy one. Possession is nine tenths of the law. Promotions should not be gained at the expense of others.

The reasonable man on the street could only conclude that the FAA's current age 60 rule is just plain wrong. That conclusion is obvious because there is the overwhelming evidence that a person’s age is not the sole determination of one’s ability to safely perform the duties of an airline pilot, that physical and mental decline cannot be measured by age alone, that we have all observed that some people decline in their physical and mental abilities faster that others but the experience factor has to be considered. Everyone since the Wright Brothers has observed that the more experienced pilot is likely to be the safer pilot. Though highly experienced pilots may suffer some varying amount decline in physical abilities as they age, their experience could more than compensate for any slight physical decline in performance.

The reasonable man on the street will see the junior pilot's exaggerated claim that all pilots over age 60 are unsafe as merely a smoke screen, that their real motive is institutionalized age discrimination and an accelerated job advancement scheme for junior pilots.

As i said in my previous post, I have yet to hear a good argument for the age change. I've read the pro-change letters that have been posted on various websites and I'm unimpressed.

Do you really think that if you truly explained the situation to a non aviation person they would see it your way, that the "junior pilot coveting what what does not belong" is the greedy one? You believe that if you tell them that this has been the rule for 40+ years, everyone who gets into aviation knows the rule, that the majority of pilots are FOR keeping the rule, and the vocal majority of those AGAINST the rule are those like you who count their airline time in days and months, not years. After explaining all this you think the junior pilots would be the ones viewed as greedy?

C'mon Klako you're gonna have to come a little stronger than that. I dont want to hear about the "junior pilot's safety smoke screen." Tell me why i should be for this change.

 

[zonker]

Oh man, you're giving me ideas. I live in the DC area.

By the way, you should've left the PAC comment in there. Like it or not, PAC money helps to gain access in Washington.
Here's a list of who ALPA gave money to: http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/pacgot.asp?strID=C00035451&Cycle=2006

Unfortunately, ALPA has been a bit schizophrenic when it comes to the age 60 issue.

Yea, I didn't want to seem as though I agreed with that sort of legalized bribery, as I think there should be reform...but it is what it is, it's the way of Washington more than ever. Hopefully "K-Street" gets taken down a peg in the coming years with the Abramoff scandal, etc.

Anyway, if you expand on those ideas, let me know: I'll contribute time, money or both. You've got a lot of knowledge on the subject, put it to good use!

 

[Klako]

Do you really think that if you truly explained the situation to a non aviation person they would see it your way, that the "junior pilot coveting what what does not belong" is the greedy one? You believe that if you tell them that this has been the rule for 40+ years, everyone who gets into aviation knows the rule, that the majority of pilots are FOR keeping the rule, and the vocal majority of those AGAINST the rule are those like you who count their airline time in days and months, not years. After explaining all this you think the junior pilots would be the ones viewed as greedy?

YES! I have asked that question many times, testing my own motivations. Try it yourself, ask the general public the question, give them the facts. They will all say that junior pilots are simply greedy.

Why should you want the age 60 rule to change now, because you should reserve now your choice in the future to fly past age 60. It is likely you will at least want that choice when your time comes. The sacrifices that you fear now have been over-stated by the nay sayers.

 

[General Lee]

YES! I have asked that question many times, testing my own motivations. Try it yourself, ask the general public the question, give them the facts. They will all say that junior pilots are simply greedy.

Why should you want the age 60 rule to change now, because you should reserve now your choice in the future to fly past age 60. It is likely you will at least want that choice when your time comes. The sacrifices that you fear now have been over-stated by the nay sayers.

Does the general public want old cops and firemen too? They have to retire at 55. Ask them if they want old pilots....

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Klako]

Does the general public want old cops and firemen too? They have to retire at 55. Ask them if they want old pilots....

Bye Bye--General Lee

Cops and firemen have very physically demanding jobs. Airline pilots on the other hand are in the same group as, say, doctors, lawyers, politicians who’s jobs are not physically but intellectually demanding. Therefore age alone should not be a factor.

 

[Freight Dog]

Klako, your arguments are really proving that you need to go. Junior pilots being greedy??? Man, you really have some nerve... gotta give you that!

 

[walden]

but intellectually demanding.

Dude, you're skating on thin ice there.

 

[satpak77]

Klako

so you gonna work again in retirement as an FAA Inspector? WHY? Don't you have a life, grandkids to hold, golf to play, kit planes to fly?

Or do you need to go from your airline and its structured support network and go right into another one?

is this about Age 60 or is this about deeper issues?

......?