AF Talking Points get defensive

[SIG600]

I don't see the F-22 brings anything to the GWOT that cheaper airplanes can't do better. The GWOT is today's war, but its not the only war that's possible.

Four or five operational 24 UE squadrons of F-22s are enough for any foreseeable conflict.

It's not about the GWOT. It's about future threats from China, Russia, NK, etc. If you have the access still I really wish you'd read up on the high side of the abilities that are out there with these new platforms. We need every ounce of capability the F-22 brings to the fight (and deters).

Pistlpete is my new hero for exposing Dave as a total fraud. Holy crap... can we petition the mods to ban this poser?

 

[Pistlpetet]

SIG,
I don't have a dog running in this AF topic, but from being a frequent contributer on http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=199, Where they expose SEAL fakes on a daily basis, I have no qualms about exposing this fake SEAL.

As you might notice, he does, or did not have any come back to my allegations (In Public or PM). IMHO no real SEAL would have the time, nor desire to spend all his time on some fly boy site, talking smack about the AF unless he has some serious axe to grind, and wants some undeserved credibility.

Unfortunately, the last time I posted the real incriminating PM's and Post's from Dave Griffin, I was banned by the mods as a trouble maker. So much for any sort of justice.

Maybe he should pick up a copy of "STOLEN VALOR", by a retired SEAL CPT.

 

[Scrapdog]

SIG,
I don't have a dog running in this AF topic, but from being a frequent contributer on http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=199, Where they expose SEAL fakes on a daily basis, I have no qualms about exposing this fake SEAL.

As you might notice, he does did not have any come back to my allegations (In Public or PM). IMHO no real SEAL would have the time, nor desire to spend all his time on some fly boy site, talking smack about the AF unless he has some serious axe to grind, and wants some undeserved credibility.

Unfortunately, the last time I posted the real incriminating PM's and Post's from Dave Griffin, I was banned by the mods as a trouble maker. So much for any sort of justice.

Maybe he should pick up a copy of "STOLEN VALOR", by a retired SEAL CPT.

Very well said Pistlpetet - this guy is a poser. And the axe to grind issue he has is spot on...it's a trend item from every post this guy spews. Good on ya...

 

[SIG600]

I've got a lot of friends that are Teams guys. Hell I lived 2 minutes down the beach from Dam Neck. Maybe they'd like the chance to straighten this POS out.

 

[ExAF]

Ignore

Just put him on your ignore list and never have to see his drivel again (unless unsuspecting victims quote his posts). Try it...you'll like it.

 

[Pistlpetet]

He is entitled to his opinion (Like Every Internet Troll). He just needs to take down that Trident.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Wow Iceman, slow down.

First, I'm not sure on the correct number of F-22's either. I will tell you that once the F-22 gets all its bugs worked out (as always every new piece of equipment has issues initially), it'll be well worth the pricetag and more. I have fought the jet on multiple occasions and the thing is ridiculously impressive, BOTH in the air to air arena and on precision strike capabilities. Once the SDB comes on line for it (it already is full up on the F-15E), the capability for long range tactical strike from the F-22 is going to be gross (and I mean gross in a good way). And trying to fight that jet in the air to air arena (India, China, N. Korea are all very potential future adversaries) is like trying to fight with both arms behind your back (and that's letting us "bad" guys fight full up).

Second, I understand the need to face our current problems. I'm all about "near rocks/far rocks." However, we can't lollygag and think CAS all day because that's the flavor du jour. We need to think 10, 20 years down the road as well, and the jet to do the job is F-22, plain and simple.

Third, if you go back and read Jim's prior posts, his anti-F-22 propoganda is like a broken record. It's always the same garbage.."we're buying too many, it's not worth it, yada, yada..." this from a guy that has no clue on what the current tactics and intel are in today's military - nor did he ever have any serious background in the new precision strike technologies or the air to air arena. If you're going to talk the talk, then walk the walk - that's my mantra there.

And trust me, congress has been briefed on the F-22's capes many times...they've had plenty of "layman's terms" talks on it already. In the end, it comes down to money, bottom line. Who knows, with this new liberal congress (Nancy "stop funding for our troops" Pelosi and John "cut and run" Murtha), maybe they'll cut funding for all our military hardware altogether. Then we can go run up to the terrorits and try to hug them. Or better yet, let's fund another liberal social program to try and help the terrorists become better, more loving people.

Keep dreaming Scrapdog. A whole 8 x 250 pound SDB? Wow, what a terrifying payload. The size of the payload doesn’t matter anyway. Do you really think the AF is going to let its most expensive and rarest fighter ever to be used in an attack mission? Despite the deceptive and short term A/F designation of the F-22, it was never designed for a ground attack mission. To pretend otherwise is an intentional lie designed to grab more budget.

You guys ought to thank your luck stars every day that precision strike technology came along to save the credibility of the AF and turn the F-16 legacy weapons platform, never designed to support the Soldiers and Marines on the ground, into half decent ‘above 15,000 ft CAS delivery systems.

The AF likes to tell Congress that the AF needs to keep its powder (read $$) dry for the next big threat, like the MIG 1.44 and quadruple digit SAMs. The problem is, the Air Force doesn’t pay enough attention to the challenges of our current situation and expects the guys on the ground doing the hard work to just deal with it.

To describe CAS as the “flavor du jour” shows the lack of respect you and the AF have for the guys who are doing the hard work, as well your disregard for the strategic urgency to finish the job sooner than later. If this thing ends up like Viet Nam your waiting period to get more F-22s and the JSF may stretch out a very long time; you’ll end up flying 50 year-old F-16s.

The one positive thing the AF and you have going is that the liberals have always bought into the AF fairytale that airpower alone can win wars. The liberals like the false security of the fantasy of accurate bombs dropped on easy-to-find clusters of bad guys, a controllable and predictable combat environment and zero US casualties. Given the liberals distaste for dirty, nasty ground wars and all the bad PR stuff that goes with it, the AF just might end up getting much of what it wants from a liberal controlled Congress in 2009.

 

[pkober]

Keep dreaming Scrapdog. A whole 8 x 250 pound SDB? Wow, what a terrifying payload. The size of the payload doesn’t matter anyway. Do you really think the AF is going to let its most expensive and rarest fighter ever to be used in an attack mission? Despite the deceptive and short term A/F designation of the F-22, it was never designed for a ground attack mission. To pretend otherwise is an intentional lie designed to grab more budget.

You guys ought to thank your luck stars every day that precision strike technology came along to save the credibility of the AF and turn the F-16 legacy weapons platform, never designed to support the Soldiers and Marines on the ground, into half decent ‘above 15,000 ft CAS delivery systems.

The AF likes to tell Congress that the AF needs to keep its powder (read $$) dry for the next big threat, like the MIG 1.44 and quadruple digit SAMs. The problem is, the Air Force doesn’t pay enough attention to the challenges of our current situation and expects the guys on the ground doing the hard work to just deal with it.

To describe CAS as the “flavor du jour” shows the lack of respect you and the AF have for the guys who are doing the hard work, as well your disregard for the strategic urgency to finish the job sooner than later. If this thing ends up like Viet Nam your waiting period to get more F-22s and the JSF may stretch out a very long time; you’ll end up flying 50 year-old F-16s.

The one positive thing the AF and you have going is that the liberals have always bought into the AF fairytale that airpower alone can win wars. The liberals like the false security of the fantasy of accurate bombs dropped on easy-to-find clusters of bad guys, a controllable and predictable combat environment and zero US casualties. Given the liberals distaste for dirty, nasty ground wars and all the bad PR stuff that goes with it, the AF just might end up getting much of what it wants from a liberal controlled Congress in 2009.

Try telling the family of the F-15E crew that crashed in 2003 that there loved ones really weren't doing the "hard work" over in Iraq. Just one example of non hard working AF guys losing there life in Iraq. I'm sure that when air assets are called into to take out the bad guys that the soldiers and marines are only asking for their assets and not AF. You know better than that.

This is just another example of some one who thinks that flyers get all the special treatment. Booh hoo!!! Same song, different guy.

 

[SIG600]

Blah blah blah, I'm a poser and a total fake.

Kill yourself.

Oh and Dave... we're (Navy, not you) now carrying 250 # bombs on Hornets, and a new 500 pounder with a reduced explosives fill for lower collateral damage. Shut the hell up.

 

[Fury220]

Kill yourself.

Oh and Dave... we're (Navy, not you) now carrying 250 # bombs on Hornets, and a new 500 pounder with a reduced explosives fill for lower collateral damage. Shut the hell up.

Thanks to you, I now have to clean Pepsi off my keyboard.

 

[DaveGriffin]

Kill yourself.

Oh and Dave... we're (Navy, not you) now carrying 250 # bombs on Hornets, and a new 500 pounder with a reduced explosives fill for lower collateral damage. Shut the hell up.

That’s great SIG600!! Can’t the Hornet carry up to 24 SDBs? That sure beats the 8 the F-22 can carry. I’m not sure what that has to do with my comments though.


My beef with the AF is that it's using the SDB to perpetuate the myth that the F-22 is a multi-role airplane, which it is not. It’s way to expensive. The AF is happy to let (in the opinion of the AF) the less highly trained Navy and Marine F-18 pilots deal with the higher risk, less glamorous CAS and attack stuff.


While the SDB was primarily developed to give the F-22 a limited, multi-target attack capability, the good news is that the highly specialized SDB can be used by many other aircraft that are real attack airplanes.


What would really be kickin’ would be a C-130 Gunship with a couple of big racks of SDBs hanging off the bottom.

 

[Occam's Razor]

It's risky...but I'm gonna agree with a portion of that. I think it's a stretch to think the USAF is going to use the F-22 for traditional CAS missions. I think it's ability to carry and deliver sophisticated earth-moving ordanance was a "selling point", not a likely mission.

As for Dave Griffin, I don't agree with a lot of his posts, but I appreciate that he focuses on the issue...instead of attacking the person. I wish I could.

 

[spanky2]

DG,
CAS is a "mission" not an aircraft or a bomb. CAS, by nature, is not efficient use of ANY airpower. Some platforms/weapons are better for CAS than others. CAS becomes necessary in certain scenarios andd happens to be the nature of current ops in the middle east. Some people WANT to do CAS. Some people believe you do CAS because you have to. Big difference. Sounds like you "want" to do CAS.

The F/A-18 is a mutli-role fighter just like the F-16. The AF chose to reject the F/A-18 (F-17 at the time) in the LWF program of the 1970's. Your "technology" slam on the F-16 applies to the F/A-18 as well. There are many, many more AF platforms performing CAS (as we speak) compared to USMC/USN platforms. AF/USMC/USN are ALL using PGMs in their daily ops. God Bless them all.

But you knew all of this anyway, being the "expert"

 

[Scrapdog]

That’s great SIG600!! Can’t the Hornet carry up to 24 SDBs? That sure beats the 8 the F-22 can carry. I’m not sure what that has to do with my comments though.


My beef with the AF is that it's using the SDB to perpetuate the myth that the F-22 is a multi-role airplane, which it is not. It’s way to expensive. The AF is happy to let (in the opinion of the AF) the less highly trained Navy and Marine F-18 pilots deal with the higher risk, less glamorous CAS and attack stuff.


While the SDB was primarily developed to give the F-22 a limited, multi-target attack capability, the good news is that the highly specialized SDB can be used by many other aircraft that are real attack airplanes.


What would really be kickin’ would be a C-130 Gunship with a couple of big racks of SDBs hanging off the bottom.

Alright Dave - your views are so shortsighted and your knowledge so lacking, I'm not sure if I should laugh at you, or feel sorry for you (or do both at the same time).

One - as I mentioned to you in a prior post (which of course you had no rebuttal because it was entirely factual), the SDB - all 250 lbs of it - produces a punch VERY MUCH EQUAL to a 2000 lb JDAM. And with its casing, it has very potent penetration capes as well. I'm begging you - if you don't believe me - google the little b*tch and get back to me. I'm tired of doing your homework for you (although I do slightly enjoy how you constantly open your mouth and stick your foot in it).

Two - the F-22 is not an airplane designed for CAS. Holy sh*t Dave, for once you're actually right. However - if we look away from the only mission you think matters in all of tactical flying - i.e. CAS - you'll see the F-22 provides a capability unmatched in today's front line fighters. The thing has amazing stealth, speed, and long range WEZ envelopes for its PGM's that no hornet, viper, mud hen, or even your beloved AC-130 can match. That is where the F-22 is perfect for penetrating the double digit SAM MEZ's to provide very precise and lethal strikes against these very SAM's. I won't go into further detail, but our current fighter iron is very limited in this type of psuedo strategic attack. And our very possible threats of tomorrow are gobbling these double digit SAM's up. Bottom line, there is no way an F-18 or F-16 is going to penetrate these MEZ's and see daylight on the other side. I know, I must be crazy - this mission doesn't matter at all because it's not CAS, but just humor me a little Dave.

Three - the AF does more CAS in Iraq and Afghanistan than the Marines and the Navy currently, hands down. It's not a slam against the Navy/Marine flyers (all very good guys), but the AF is the AF for a reason, i.e. our sole purpose is putting jets in the air to put iron on target. Go take a look at the current deployed AF AD and ANG/Res units deployed over in the theater and you'll see the amount and the bulk of the current mission frag's. OK, I'll save you a little trouble - guess what, it's CAS.

Dave, just go away. You don't have a clue about the F-22, the SDB, or anything else besides your extremely minute amount of data on CAS. Once you get a pilot slot and actually start flying an airplane, maybe we can talk...maybe.

 

[SIG600]

The F/A-18 is a mutli-role fighter just like the F-16. The AF chose to reject the F/A-18 (F-17 at the time) in the LWF program of the 1970's. Your "technology" slam on the F-16 applies to the F/A-18 as well. There are many, many more AF platforms performing CAS (as we speak) compared to USMC/USN platforms. AF/USMC/USN are ALL using PGMs in their daily ops. God Bless them all.

But you knew all of this anyway, being the "expert"

Oh so now you wanna go there with it huh??? Just kidding... but the Hornet does have a lot of the latest gucci stuff. I'm currently flying with APG-73, MIDS/L16, CIT, etc. and the Rhino's APG-79 is mind blowing (not Raptor mind blowing but still amazing). What the Hornet dosen't have is the raw brute power the Viper has, 9G's, sustained turn rate, and blazing speed. We make up for it with Alpha though (speaking from a BFM perspective). Sorry to get all defensive there.

DG you amaze me that you even keep talking. You're a poser/tool/fake/homo/all of the above. We know you're not a Seal, and like a pirate in a termite nest, have no leg to stand on.