Additional UAL Pilot Furloughs today

[FlyDeltasJets]

It didn't do squat in 83. It did do squat in 85. I said it is effective in "a lot of cases". I believe that. You don't. Who cares? I was in 5th grade during your strike. I was older when UAL went out, older still for EAL, AA F/A's, TWA F/A's, NWA, CMR, even skyway's half hour stand. Age alone does not breed wisdom. I will grant you, you know far more than I about CAL's strike. But that does not preclude me from having an opinion about the union and the industry.

I did address why so many people crossed in 83. I will do it again. Ready? There is NEVER ANY EXCUSE TO CROSS A PICKET LINE. I don't care why they did it. I also don't care if that bothers you. I repeat. Before a strike we must do all we can to correct mistakes of the past and improve our union. That does not mean, however, that an imperfect union gives people the right to scab. Hatred of ALPA is not an acceptable excuse to steal jobs.

By the way, I started this post with a snotty remark (you are correct) because I remember you jumping in to a conversation I was having with someone else, and out of the blue you told me you hated Delta pilots worse than scabs, and no Delta pilot would ever be welcome on your jumpseat. Guess I remembered that post. It pissed me off. That was reflected in my post to you. I am sorry that I started this thread off on a snide note. I guess I resented the post you made to me a while back. I will work on being less snide if you will do the same. It is getting neither of us anywhere.

I was going to add a bunch of stuff responding to your assertion that people would "take me apart", but it seems rather childish, doesn't it, "sport"?

 

[Boeingman]

[

It didn't do squat in 83. It did do squat in 85. I said it is effective in "a lot of cases". I believe that. You don't. Who cares? I was in 5th grade during your strike. I was older when UAL went out, older still for EAL, AA F/A's, TWA F/A's, NWA, CMR, even skyway's half hour stand. Age alone does not breed wisdom. I will grant you, you know far more than I about CAL's strike. But that does not preclude me from having an opinion about the union and the industry.

OK true statements here. But one of the main reasons the UAL strike was effective was it was planned and executed very well. ALPA learned alot about the manner in which they handled CAL.
There were things about the CAL strike that would really open your eyes about 1983 ALPA and the CAL MEC's handling of it.

There was also a persistent rumor (with some facts) that was circulating why the UAL strike settled quickly. I am not going to argue with you about the solidarity there but there were some external forces on that situation that applied pressure as well.
Your tactics that you seem to feel will work in these situations I think had the potential for failure at UAL. You can't compare the 2 strikes. They were totally different in many ways. In retrospect it is also one of the reasons I am adament on the way potential scab situations are handled.

I really don't have a problem with your opinions about the industry or union. I thought I had said that frequently. We differ in the ostrasizing issue because from my vantage at CAL your methods would, at a minimum ,get you time off. The real problem for us is alienating and splitting the pilot group, again. You can kiss our leverage goodbye if this happens. Besides, it is an unsafe CRM environment in the airplane.


Wisdom with age? I can tell you the anger will eventually eat you up inside. There comes a point it is just not worth it any longer. Not saying that you just forget about things. I am speaking from experience here dealing with this for almost 20 years.

Like I have said to you before, you guys have never been tested. You have what 31 years left? A lot of changes can occur over this time period.

I did address why so many people crossed in 83. I will do it again. Ready? There is NEVER ANY EXCUSE TO CROSS A PICKET LINE. I don't care why they did it. I also don't care if that bothers you. I repeat. Before a strike we must do all we can to correct mistakes of the past and improve our union. That does not mean, however, that an imperfect union gives people the right to scab. Hatred of ALPA is not an acceptable excuse to steal jobs.

I'm not asking, looking or wondering about excuses (nor have I ever). There are reasons why pilots crossed. I'm not saying they are the right reasons for a unionist, but they are reasons non the less. You cannot just sum up the argument don't do it's not right. It works for you and I, but others are itching to settle scores. I prefer to find the reasons that start this logic in the first place and correct those policies. It is a process that takes years. Now I am seeing an entire new issue boiling up with some very pissed off regional pilots.

And your right pissed off at ALPA is not acceptable. But it has always bothered me that this was a common theme for our guys and the new hires. What still bothers me to this day is why so many former ALPA guys. Doesn't it beg the question to you, where did the association go wrong with these people?

I only ask this to prevent a future occurence, nothing more.

Turbo is right, any protracted strike with a Lorenzo type management is going to be 1983 all over again.

By the way, I started this post with a snotty remark (you are correct) because I remember you jumping in to a conversation I was having with someone else, and out of the blue you told me you hated Delta pilots worse than scabs, and no Delta pilot would ever be welcome on your jumpseat. Guess I remembered that post. It pissed me off. That was reflected in my post to you. I am sorry that I started this thread off on a snide note. I guess I resented the post you made to me a while back. I will work on being less snide if you will do the same. It is getting neither of us anywhere.

I thought I explained my JS problem to you. BTW I missed getting home to the hospital before the death of an Uncle over that denial. He died about an hour after the DAL flight would of gotten me there, non stop. I was still waiting for my CAL connection when I got the call. That's was my root cause for seething in anger over DAL pilot's on my airplane.

I'll take you up on the toning down the snide comments. Apology accepted.

I was going to add a bunch of stuff responding to your assertion that people would "take me apart", but it seems rather childish, doesn't it, "sport"?

It may, but I am serious. We have some very hardcore guys at CAL on both sides of the fence. I'm telling you that as much as you feel you're right, some of these guys feel the to the same degree about their actions. What will really set them off is some young guy obviously not old enough to have lived through it passing judgments.

My "taking apart" was meant from a verbal level that with several I COULD see a confrontation escalate with someone as opinionated as yourself.

That IS your right though for your opinion. I'm just making an observation on a potential situation.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Thanks for the nice post,

This is more constructive, for both of us. By the way, I understand now why you were so pissed off at the Delta pilot. He acted like a jerk, especially to a full-term striker. You have walked the walk. I said that from the very first post, and I still say that. With all of our fighting, nowhere will you find me say anything but good things about your personal history. He was an a$$hole, but trust me, despite what you have repeatedly said, he does not represent the majority of Delta pilots. Incidentaly, your original post to me on the other thread did not mention anything about your story, just the words that Delta pilots were worse than scabs and one would never ride your j/s. I therefore had to assume I was in for a war on this thread, and started off in such a manner. I did not hear your apology regarding your original thread, but your implied apology is accepted

Regarding the issue of UAL's strike versus yours. You are correct that they did a lot of things differently, many of which they learned from you. The weren't in BK, you were. They had Rick Dubinsky, you had Larry Baxter. But those differences alone do not account for the success or failure of a strike. UAL had 570 potential scabs, trained and ready to go. The wooing of them by ALPA was instrumenal in keeping them out. I would venture to say the threat of a lifetime of ostracism was equally effective.

Thank you for your advice about my anger tearing me up. You needn't worry about me, I consider myself a very happy person. I have the best wife in the world, live in the best country in the world, and fly for (I think) the best airline in the world. Believe me, anger is not tearing me up! I simply enjoy discussing airline and union matters. I don't have anger so much as disdain for scabs. I don't talk to them. They cease to exist for me. That's why I don't reply to the scab you mentioned.

As far as your situation at CAL goes, I said long ago that you have to handle it the way you think is best. Perhaps you need their help in your upcoming contract battle. That is a decision that you and your co-workers have to make on your own, and I am not in a position to criticize. I can, however, comment on the politics of my own union. I think letting a scab back into ALPA, let alone electing one to the MEC sends a very dangerous message to my generation of pilots. I am aware that current ALPA policies are breeding resentment. That could cause us problems in the future and should be addressed. I feel the same way about the precedent on forgiving scabs-It could cause us problems in the future. Our goal should be to ensure that no picket line is ever crossed again. I believe that takes a two-pronged effort. One (and most important), fight to make a better ALPA today. Two, exact the maximum penalty for scabs, and stick to it. I reiterate...You may have to bend those rules at CAL. I don't know. But ALPA should not.

Thank you for your warning about confrontations with people. Again, you don't have to be concerned. I don't engage in confrontations in public, if it can be helped. I act like a professional, especially in uniform. I am not, nor have I ever been, a hothead. Also, being 6'5" and 270 seems to have the effect of keeping people from trying to take shots at me! The fact is, except for you and I getting off on a bad foot, you will find in most of my discussions, be they on the internet or in real life, I try to be civil and polite. I know that this one wasn't so much of either, but I think we both played a part in that. I think people on this board who have debated me will agree that I usually stick to the facts. Of course, all of us have room for improvement!

By the way, not having lived through something does not bar people from passing judgment. There are many things that I have not experienced directly that I still know are wrong.

Thanks again for the nice post. I do like this type of debate much better. Believe it or not, I'm a pretty peace-loving guy!

Again, best of luck in your upcoming negotiations.

 

[av8instyle]

a little toned down...

I wasted a half hour reading this thread, and learned this:

1-"Incidently, I rather enjoy flying at CAL. I don't care about money (even though you enjoy flouting your pay scales) and my exposure to your flight crews on layovers has always left me with an impression that working at Delta is no fun at all. "
Boeingman, it disgusted me to see a former fellow fighter pilot get himself into a guns defense, get shot, and not have the integrity to admit he lost. You made the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** mistake, now be a man and fess up!

2-A scab is a scab. A scab is a person that would take from one person that which he/she is unable to acquire on his own merit. Or, someone who screws his buddies. An airline fills pilot seats with its pilots or strike breakers. If there is no one willing to cross, then the airline either gives in or seals its death. That is the choice and all strikers are aware of the consequences. If you eliminate strike breakers, you have a much better chance of succeeding. Therefore, if management knows they have a pilot force full of strike breakers, do you think they are going to worry as much about a strike?

3-Boeingman, you want to prove that you are right about FDJ and his CAL board posts. What is the link?

4-Boeingman, did I really read that post right? Did you really challenge another member to take you on? Did you mean a fight? Judging by your profile and your posts I'd say you are quite a bit older than me. But you sure don't act like it. Grow up, sir.

5-Boeingman, I have a hard time believing that an entire pilot force would want you being the CAL spokesperson.

6-Boeingman, I've flown with a lot of fighter pilots both in the military and at the airline. I have yet to come across one like you. You are arguementative, you make excuses, and you can't admit when you're wrong. I question whether you were actually a fighter pilot due to these reasons. If you were, fine. I'm not going to argue the point. But I'll bet you didn't get along in the squadron very well.

7-I'm not going to hash these points out for another three pages. I just wanted to add my $.02. If you reread these posts you'll see an alarming trend - most people that responded think you're off your rocker.

By the way, I haven't struck, I haven't been furloughed, I'm pretty young, and I have not nearly your experience (probably).
But I am married, have two kids, work for a major, have flown for the commuters, have flown fighters in the military, am a proud ALPA member, and I am entitled to, and have, opinions.

Good luck.

FDJ-excellent points, posts, and thanks for keeping the unity, brother.

 

[FLYnMONKEYS]

Between the long winded replies of BOTH Boeingman and FDJ I think the most important point has been lost. Scabs are scabs forever and should never be trusted or treated to a jumpseat. They should be identified as scabs, treated like scabs, and an example of what not to do if you like your career.

I don't have the industry lexicon of these two guys; however, they have impressed me with all their knowledge. But the only important thing is scabs suck!

 

[Boeingman]

Re: a little toned down...

I wasted a half hour reading this thread, and learned this:

1-"Incidently, I rather enjoy flying at CAL. I don't care about money (even though you enjoy flouting your pay scales) and my exposure to your flight crews on layovers has always left me with an impression that working at Delta is no fun at all. "
Boeingman, it disgusted me to see a former fellow fighter pilot get himself into a guns defense, get shot, and not have the integrity to admit he lost. You made the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** mistake, now be a man and fess up!

Mistake about what? When I hired on with CAL people were turning down Delta. Has it ever crossed your mind that things change in this industry over time?

As far as their contract more power to them. For me personally my pay and benefits at CAL mean nothing to me because of my financial situation. This job is like a hobby to me now. I know that people like you that their whole world revolves around your job and paycheck this may seem strange but deal with it. It is my opinion anyway.

2-A scab is a scab. A scab is a person that would take from one person that which he/she is unable to acquire on his own merit. Or, someone who screws his buddies. An airline fills pilot seats with its pilots or strike breakers. If there is no one willing to cross, then the airline either gives in or seals its death. That is the choice and all strikers are aware of the consequences. If you eliminate strike breakers, you have a much better chance of succeeding. Therefore, if management knows they have a pilot force full of strike breakers, do you think they are going to worry as much about a strike?

And the purpose of this lecture is telling me something I don't already know? You sound like an idiot telling a full term CAL striker this.

3-Boeingman, you want to prove that you are right about FDJ and his CAL board posts. What is the link?

The more intelligent among us would just add a .COMM on to the CALFORUMS site I mentioned. But I'll help you out here. CALFORUMS.COM

4-Boeingman, did I really read that post right? Did you really challenge another member to take you on? Did you mean a fight? Judging by your profile and your posts I'd say you are quite a bit older than me. But you sure don't act like it. Grow up, sir.

Older and much wiser. The watch your mouth comment deteriorated on both sides.

5-Boeingman, I have a hard time believing that an entire pilot force would want you being the CAL spokesperson.

Right. Who wants someone that there only goal is to secure an industry leading contract. You’re just too immature to accept an ideal that I feel needs to happen on my property.

As a matter of fact, I have been asked numerous times by my peers to run for a union position.

6-Boeingman, I've flown with a lot of fighter pilots both in the military and at the airline. I have yet to come across one like you. You are argumentative, you make excuses, and you can't admit when you're wrong. I question whether you were actually a fighter pilot due to these reasons. If you were, fine. I'm not going to argue the point. But I'll bet you didn't get along in the squadron very well.

No I am opinionated. You seem to have a problem with that. I stick by my ideas and values. I don't argue for the sake of arguing. Excuses my ass.

You also sound like a jerk off to make an assumption of my military background and career. I know what I have down, what I have accomplished, the people I have known for years and I am **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** proud and comfortable with my reflections.

I rather enjoyed my debate with FDJ. AT least he has the intelligence to converse with his facts and ideals where all you try and do is tear me down. This doesn’t bother me in the least I should add.

7-I'm not going to hash these points out for another three pages. I just wanted to add my $.02. If you reread these posts you'll see an alarming trend - most people that responded think you're off your rocker.

BFD. This your measuring stick of a poll? Or are you the weaker type that would bend because a couple bozos don't agree with you?

By the way, I haven't struck, I haven't been furloughed, I'm pretty young, and I have not nearly your experience (probably).
But I am married, have two kids, work for a major, have flown for the commuters, have flown fighters in the military, am a proud ALPA member, and I am entitled to, and have, opinions.

Well I HAVE struck, I HAVE been on furlough, I have probably been in this industry since you've been in grade school, I would think that alone would give me a good perspective on this industry. Let's continue I AM married, I have THREE kids, I also work for a MAJOR, I HAVE flown fighters (big deal what is your point here? Who are you trying to impress?) I am also a PROUD ALPA member an I am ALSO ENTITLED to have opinions.

Biggest difference aside from the obvious lack of time in the industry between us is that I respect others opinions (FDJ's), you on the other hand respect only your own.

That in itself makes you insignificant in my mind.
BTW, who do you work for?

FDJ-excellent points, posts, and thanks for keeping the unity, brother.

And this sums it up; you just don't like my idea of unity. Please worry about your own carrier and I'll concern myself with mine.

I've earned the right to think like I do. How much time have you spent on a picket line?

 

[FlyingSig]

Re: Re: a little toned down...

The more intelligent among us would just add a .COMM on to the CALFORUMS site I mentioned. But I'll help you out here. CALFORUMS.COM

Yeah, that really gets them there esp since the thread title has nothing to do with the discussion.... since I've read that thread and thought that nobody there put FDJ in his place thought I'd let others decide for themselves...

http://www.calforums.com/calboard/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1574

As a matter of fact, I have been asked numerous times by my peers to run for a union position.

You vs. Tipson....now THAT would be an election.




...just an observation from a former dues paying IACP member

 

[RichardFitzwell]

Oh ya...well my dad can kick your dad's ass!

R.F.

 

[Humty72]

wow.

 

[av8instyle]

Boeingman....

Nevermind....you're not getting it.
c ya