Additional UAL Pilot Furloughs today

[FlyDeltasJets]

While I was writing my last post, you guys posted a lovefest. Perhaps boeing and I could agree on one thing. To hold the people who actually sinned responsible for committing the sin. I am not ready to forgive scabs (i think it's a very bad idea) but I really do try not to characterize the entire CAL (or UAL for that matter) pilot group as scabs. I have no doubt that he has met some arrogant Delta pilots. I would ask him not to hold the sins of a few against all of us. I think I make the same effort. If that does not come through, than I will try harder in the future.

 

[Tim47SIP]

Wow! What a thread!
IFDJ's, for once I have to fully agree with you. Pulled out some of my MAS books concerning airline history and your story concernig United is pretty close. I personnaly didn't see the attack you were accused of.

Boeingman, I have to agree with you about a couple of things. CAL pilots have weathered a few storms and have done an outstanding job helping to build Continental to where it is today. Congrats! But one question, If you hate ALPA so much, then why the F*#@ did you guys bring in ALPA. I still remeber all of the boards full of warnings from ALPA members to stay away for your own good. I also agree that the pay scales of today have hit their peak, especially with Air Trans, Southwest, etc. out there keeping down the ticket prices. Renegotiaton of contracts will be the only way out for some. P.S. you might want to work on the CRM, as I would hate to piss you off in the cockpit and you break my arm or something. Additionally, working for DCI, I no of noone that would not let a non scab CAL pilot jump. I personally have never seen any 121 pilot stopped from jumping with us. Matter of fact, it is many Capt's policy that once the jumseater is on the aircraft, he will not be removed eveen if a positive space passenger showes up later. Maybe you might want to reconsider your jumpseat policy a little. Just because that one Delta pilot was a jerk, dosn't mean you have to respond in kind.

 

[Boeingman]

FDJ:


You're dead wrong about the events of PEX/FAL/UAL situation. Believe what you will, there was a great deal of issues going on behind the scenes. I'm not sure what book you got your info from, but I witnessed the entire episode. Sort of like you with EAL. Lot of crap going on, much of never recorded. Since you have to resort to magazines and books (what were you about 14 at the time?) I think that speaks for itself.

Flout issue: You were mocking our contract waving your pay scales in my face. Further calling our contract a "B" scale and totally ignoring your own B scale on property. Going even further ignoring other "B scale ALPA" (old TWA) contracts out there. You also slante the end run rates with our cap rates, so yes, all in all you were using your contract in a mocking manner towards us. And yes I still don't care. I never said "they" were the "same" term. The inference was that each of us was using the term to highlight ones argument. But you did start out with the mocking.


Victim complex? Holy cow batman. If there is anyone with a victim complex you need to take a good look in the mirror (try it without your uniform on). You love playing the victim about a situation that doesn't even concern you or affected you. You love telling people who lived through the situation how they should act and feel. That makes me very angry. You have absolutely no right and it infuriates me to see martyrs like yourself about the CAL 1983 situation.

You are wrong in your attitude about scabs and you SHOULD concern yourself why some crossed. Again I ask...why so many ex ALPA members? Keep ignoring that monster and it will rear its head up to bite one day. You keep minimizing it to an event that occurred when you were 11 years old. I am trying to tell you that having lived through it (get my drift here?) that I see a real problem on the horizon for this industry. You have an army of highly qualified RJ pilots who are getting either a perceived or actual shafting by ALPA. It concerns me when there is another showdown of these ramifications. You keep wanting to ostracize those from the past. Go ahead. My point to you is your energy is being spent in the wrong direction. Ignore the advice at your own peril.

And you’re even further out of synch by saying they didn't hurt ALPA. Are you serious? I'll let that one go; it was a momentary lapse in judgment.

Polite to every CAL pilot wearing an ALPA pin? So how do you differentiate the 1100 or more scabs that are now wearing ALPA pins? Some for the first time, but many are wearing them again.

My "attitude" about Delta I have stated before. No need to rehash this again. Inferiority complex about it? Hardly. This industry is nothing more than a hobby for me now. 1983 was very good to me overall. I'm thinking of buying an L39 soon and this will take care of my flying fix so I looking at getting out early and enjoying my life, my funds and my business. To even suggest or imply I have an inferiority complex exposes your typical comments and personality that all of use must be in awe of a Delta guy like yourself. May I repeat? I am not.

One of the things which totally disgusted me during the strike was seeing kids in the strike centers or on the picket lines. This situation was traumatic enough for adults but to expose children (yes 17 still a kid) is a bad call in judgment.

OK I'll take the compliment on the strike. You just give the impression since I don't follow your line of thinking I am a scab lover. Incidentally, the way I view things is no one "lost heir jobs. Every striking CAL pilot is back in is rightful seniority position. If you want to talk about taking jobs, look at the NYA situation. Those were jobs that were truly stolen from TI. Again I ask you...Why didn't ALPA SOS with this situation? Ask Dad about EAL's input to that. That sure ended up biting your family in the ass pretty hard later on. ALAP lost the battle with Frank in 1980. Not 1983, 1986 or 1989. My theme here is to try and open your eyes to the events going around you NOW not from an incident almost 20 years ago.

I'm not passing out excuses either but they are here to stay and we must as a collective group deal with the situation properly to avoid a massive crossing again. I think ALPA has come a long way in dealing with this. I'm not placating either. You'd be very enlightened to see the people who crossed at CAL are some very strong union supporters. I question some others on property today more than some of those who crossed in 1983. Besides, the real guys who killed us were our own CAL pilots in 9/83.
Additionally, I always felt a little guilty our MEC promised the IAM in August of 1983 we'd support them but we didn't. I know what I said about EAL but it was different. Like it or not they are members.

When I posted the Boeingman it seemed pretty generic. I take offense to your writings plus my distaste for the select few DAL pilots I have had the opportunity to come across. OK, how is that the select few?

You were completely outgunned in that debate on CF's. Besides, how many CAL guys do you see coming over to a DAL board and smart assing off? It goes with that elitist attitude that leaks from your writings.

Go ahead insult all the scabs you want. You sound like a fool and I can guarantee one of these days you're going to mouth off to the wrong guy. Remember many scabs are wearing ALPA pins. You going to ask for a questionnaire before you talk to anyone from CAL? As far as the JS issues, my story is not alone with DAL and UAL. It is a common theme with many of our pilots on property. Although it doesn't seem to happen as much anymore.
My justification is as wrong as denying any ALPA member. Tell you what though, since this debate I'll rescind my policy. It was just one a$$hole to many at the time. Fair enough?

As far as EAL. Disclaimer I am NOT defending Frank (take it easy Zara). But he was raping CAL with your "stole" assets just as badly. He sucked CAL dry with the holding companies. Like I said before we wanted nothing to do with your stuff especially towards the end. We wanted NO part of EAL on property and every single asset strengthen the single carrier lawsuits. It is ancient history but the IAM and ALPA should never have left the property. The very least you could of hurt him better that way.

Again I am only defending my pilot group. Period. That includes scabs and we need every one of them to be solidified. From my perspective your methods will not achieve our goals. The rest of ALPA's sins? I only mention what I see as potential problems from the association not learning from the past. If I didn't forgive ALPA's sins I wouldn't be a MIGS and gladly pay my assessment each and every month.

I only disagree on each of our perspectives. I don't respect yours because you were not a part of then nor are you today.

You don't respect mine because we have different goals. Yours is to ostracize, mine is to attain the best contract possible. I can clearly see your methods will do us more harm than good locally, and my advice to use is to learn from the past.

 

[Boeingman]

Wow! What a thread!
IFDJ's, for once I have to fully agree with you. Pulled out some of my MAS books concerning airline history and your story concernig United is pretty close. I personnaly didn't see the attack you were accused of.

Boeingman, I have to agree with you about a couple of things. CAL pilots have weathered a few storms and have done an outstanding job helping to build Continental to where it is today. Congrats! But one question, If you hate ALPA so much, then why the F*#@ did you guys bring in ALPA. I still remeber all of the boards full of warnings from ALPA members to stay away for your own good. I also agree that the pay scales of today have hit their peak, especially with Air Trans, Southwest, etc. out there keeping down the ticket prices. Renegotiaton of contracts will be the only way out for some. P.S. you might want to work on the CRM, as I would hate to piss you off in the cockpit and you break my arm or something. Additionally, working for DCI, I no of noone that would not let a non scab CAL pilot jump. I personally have never seen any 121 pilot stopped from jumping with us. Matter of fact, it is many Capt's policy that once the jumseater is on the aircraft, he will not be removed eveen if a positive space passenger showes up later. Maybe you might want to reconsider your jumpseat policy a little. Just because that one Delta pilot was a jerk, dosn't mean you have to respond in kind.

I don't hate ALPA at all. I am trying to enlighten some of the more radical folks that they have made some huge mistakes in the past and some of the by products were crossing the line in 1983.

I am concerned that there are those who do not learn from the past. Nothing more.

Good point about the JS's and after talking about it it made no sense so adios to that. It is a stupid as the "list" and I'm guilty of doing just what I critized about. Although my disdain for the DAL DBA syndrome went much deeper, way back to my F-4 days

Who is DCI?

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Your entire post is Bull$hit.

Everyone knows it. You get on your high horse, rewrite history, then claim that you are not here to ostracize. BS.

Need I remind you that the entire thread began when YOU insulted the UAL pilots.

I defended them. You can spin it any way you like, but the readers of this thread can see the truth in black and white.

You go on to say that I cannot comment on any situation in which I was not directly involved. You accuse me of playing the victim because my father was an EAL pilot. Have you even been here during this debate? YOU first commented on the UAL/FAL situation. Did YOU work for either. YOU first brought family into it. Need I remind you of your poor brother-in-law and sister. YOU did all of the things you accuse me of, yet you did them FIRST.

You accused me of "flouting" our contract and insulting (also flouting?) yours. Once again, NEVER brought up our contract until you criticized our Delta Express operation. Only then did I TOUT (are you getting the difference yet?) our pay.

Honest to God, our posts are only a few hours old. They are still here. I just read them. Everyone else has too. There are no documents to shred, the evidence is still here. You started all of this. I posted simply to defend the UAL pilots, not to attack anyone. I appreciate all that they have done (mistakes and all) to help our profession.

I agree with you that we have to deal with the rj issue. If you read any of my other posts, you will see that I support onelist. Don't think it will happen, but I support the idea. That is the problem with you. You don't take the time to listen or read my posts. I have admitted throughout this topic that ALPA is not, and has never been, perfect. I have stated many times that their are problems that need to be addressed. I do not have "blinders" on regarding ALPA, and if I thought you even read my posts, I would post them here. HOWEVER, that does not mean we should forgive the scabs. I don't care what their excuse is. I don't care what carrier they work for. A scab is a scab, and they should never be forgiven. By the way, ALPA is just a group of people. When I said they did not hurt ALPA, I was trying to personalize the situation. I went on to say that they hurt YOU. You and your co-workers were ALPA. They hurt you. If you want to forgive and forget, that's fine. You are perfectly within your rights. I just find it so interesting that you play the noble warrior, rushing the the defence of the scabs, all the while putting down pilot groups all over the country. Don't talk to me about unity. I am all for it. Are you? From your writings and put downs, it seems that you only want unity with the scabs. Your ideas about forgiveness are admirable, and perhaps I would even someday be convinced you were right, if it weren't for your treatment of other pilot groups. I hope you'll pardon me for saying you seem a bit inconsistant in your forgiving nature.

Need I remind you once again that you started this. You came on this board and insulted UAL pilots and DAL pilots before I even said a SINGLE word about CAL.


That being said, I think I extended the olive branch in my previous post. You didn't seem to want to take it. That's ok, I'll keep going. I'm on reserve. I'm getting paid to do this!


P.S.
Just for the record, I have never been "outgunned" in a debate in my life. I may have lost a few, and learned a lot in the process, but "outgunned"? Don't think so.

 

[Tim47SIP]

Boeingdood, DCI is Delta Connection Incorporated. it consists of ASA and Comair. I know, were just peons in the whole scheem of things, but were are trying. Got to go to work so try not to beat each other up to much. Will try to catch up in a few days.

 

[Boeingman]

FDJ:

It's only BullSh!t because you can't stand hearing another opinion contrary to your own. You take pride in your ostracizing and it is evident your lousy home life during the EAL strike from a child is coming to home roost as an adult. What you personally can't stand is I don't give a sh!t about it and am more concerned with the big picture. Do you jealously guard this resentment because it is the core of your entire character?

I am not a personal victim of the FAL issue. You play (and remind everyone) the poor pitiful victim of an EAL family that couldn't get its act together and now we see the end product manifested with you. I guess it is a similar situation about abused children become abusive. Come to think of it, as I said earlier it WAS abusive to expose kids to the crap your father was going through.


I characterized the Express operation after your snide remark about our "B" scale contract. You’re such an egotist you can't even remember your own digs. Once again to make yourself look high and mighty you then point out the extremes of both contracts and then fail to mention the toilet agreement you worked for at TWA but call ours a "B" scale contract. So again I ask, what was the ALPA negotiated contract at TWA? A "D" scale?

I don't care what you appreciate about what who has done. UAL does not walk on water in my opinion. Perhaps you view them with the capability of parting of the seas and the industry riding on the backs of you and you brothers at DAL, but I don't. Good thing you're on reserve since all this patting yourself on the back has to of pulled some muscles.

Knock it off with the noble warrior crap and defense of scabs. What is it going to take to get through your thick head that it is an issue that needs to be dealt with on my property differently than your immature methods? You enjoy comparing a flippant comment about UAL to the same level to try and make your case.
A stretch at best and your very transparent.

I never had to forgive any other ALPA groups. Just because my exposure to DAL pilots in the past I stated they all come across as elitist a$$holes? You are a prime example of what I am talking about. Your attitude drips with arrogance, you slant with every lame angle you can find and you shove your ideals and values down others throats.

You keep mouthing off about forgiving. I am far past worrying about what happened before, I am only concerned about the future. You seem to have this need to be acknowledged about your anger harboring deep inside. And WE at CAL need the unity with the scabs. You’re a complete moron if you think we'll be able to achieve anything otherwise. I know this flies in the face of everything you base your life on, but it is our situation at CAL. If you keep critizing my (and many others at CAL) opinions on how to achieve OUR contract I must say mind your own f*cking business and stop putting your words, ideals attitude in my mouth.

Don't lecture me about the RJ situation. If you give yourself any more emotional medals for your own opinions you're going to fall off that pulpit you keep preaching to everyone on. I make an observation, based on my experiences in the industry and you reduce it to a one list concept. The anger brewing amongst the regional folks represented by ALPA go far beyond the SSL. Obviously your intellectual and emotional ability to absorb what I am saying is not possible so why continue?

Perhaps by glossing over why I keep saying about the reason people cross is a dark area you just don't want to admit to or confront? I don't know and I don't care. But others thankfully have looked at the reasons. Stay as a line pilot, your views will do the association no good.

Insulted UAL pilots? Nope. I was just commenting on their own words from an ALPA officer at the time. If they sound insulting go piss and moan to your UAL friends. They said it first and it insulted me as an ALPA member at the time their flippant attitude towards another staunch ALPA group. Of course you were still dreaming of your first case of stink finger at that time so I can hardly blame you for your bent perception in this area.

I believe my last statement to you was an olive branch as well. Not only to try and point out that you can keep (nor do I care) your ideals etc. etc, they just don't work on everyone, everywhere. CAL is a unique situation and crap out of other ALPA members like you makes our job even harder. That pisses me off. Plain enough?

But no that's not good enough for you is it? You have to reduce back to some foolish comparison about my ideals of ALPA and the scab issue. I keep ignoring them until now because it might have sent a message that your sounding like a jerkoff trying to compare the same beliefs. But I guess I have to say it. So there you go.

I'll talk all day if you'd like. I'm getting paid to sit home as well on SL. Additionally I'm working on some other outside interest so have at it.

You've probably been outgunned more than you think sport. You're ego just refuses to admit it. I've seen guys like you crash and burn for years. Only a matter of time for you.

 

[Boeingman]

Boeingdood, DCI is Delta Connection Incorporated. it consists of ASA and Comair. I know, were just peons in the whole scheem of things, but were are trying. Got to go to work so try not to beat each other up to much. Will try to catch up in a few days.

I don't consider you guys pions at all. The entire RJ i and it's issues are a force to be reckoned with.

FDJ doesn't seem to acknowledge it, but I see some big problems unless the playing field gets leveled between us mainline guys and you Revenue jet folks.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

This is getting old.

First of all, first time the b-scale was mentioned was when I praised the UAL guys for fighting it in 85. You came back and put the Delta Express operation down (in your typical nasty way). Only then did I talk about your current contract. So in retrospect, you did not "characterize the express operation after my snide remark about your b-scale contract." Once again, cause and effect. You insulted our express, I insulted your contract. You brought it up, not me. And if you remember correctly, I wrote often wishing you luck in your negotiations. Missed that part, did ya?

Secondly, I did not remind everyone about my Eastern association. You asked. I answered. Cause and effect.

Third, my father had started a business long before EAL went under. Financially, we were fine. My father did "have his act together." It just hurt us to watch him lose something he loved. Inappropriate comment you made, by the way.

Never said UAL "walked on water". You made a snide remark about UAL guys getting furloughed. I pointed out that they have helped our profession. Again, cause and effect.

I never once told you how to treat the issues on the CAL property. I said the I didn't think the scabs should be forgiven. I did not, however, tell you how to handle your negotiations at CAL. I simply wished you luck. If you want to forgive the scabs, so be it. The only reason that I even brought them up is that you were so adamant in telling me how bad the ual guys were. All I said is that if you were looking for someone with a history of harming ALPA, you had some targets right on the property. Once more, cause and effect.

I wasn't "lecturing" you about the rj. I simply pointed out, once again in response to you, that I was aware there is a problem. I dare say that I have posted far more than you have on the proper way to deal with that problem. Yet you persist in saying that I don't "acknowledge" the problem exists.

I won't even get in to a conversation with you about who has more "intellectual and emotional ability" to absorb what the other is saying. The history of this thread is a much more eloquent response than I could ever write.


By the way, "Sport" I have been outgunned more times than you know. More than enough to knock most of the ego out of me. Just not in debates. And especially not in this one! Thanks for your kind words about me "crashing and burning" by the way. Sounds like you are looking forward to it. If you reread all of my posts, I have never hoped for anything but the best for you and your pilot group. I long ago stopped expecting the same courtesy from you.

All that being said, I will accept your olive branch (even though it feels like you are hitting me with it rather than handing it to me!). I will admit that you are in a unique situation. You will have to handle it your own way. I wish you the best

 

[~~~^~~~]

You have an army of highly qualified RJ pilots who are getting either a perceived or actual shafting by ALPA. It concerns me when there is another showdown of these ramifications.

True - it is smoldering dynomite - particularly if an airline gets desperate and tries a Lorenzo style bankruptcy reorganization. The wall ALPA has built through the middle of the union is very dangerous. (Scary thought - would Delta have less of a cash burn if the mainline jets were parked? I think we know what the answer is at US Air)

The Delta MEC may be in a unique position to perform a heroic act to restore the union by integrating the Connection guys. Having all Delta flying performed by Delta pilots on a 12,000 strong list - wow.

In recent history the United MEC and their pilots have been very supportive of the Connection pilot group - we appreciate it.