Adding the .2 for each military sortie for an ATP

[Foties]

So here is one for some military guys that also have extensive civilian experience.

I know that various airlines have different military conversions that allow us to add some time to each sortie, like the .2 per sortie to include block out and in times.

What advice would you give a guy that is being advised he should add that .2 per sortie conversion to his time to get that 1500 for the ATP.?

I know that the 1500 (ATP) is almost meaningless in the airline industry, but this is a unique situation where that 1500 is critical for an good career opportunity.

By no means do I want to be shady or dishonest but when I first started flying (which was civilian) everyone I knew logged their time from the HOBBS meter, which was the time the engine(s) where running(Pretty much block out to block in).

So is it right that Joe Cessna legally get his ATP solely logging HOBBS time and Foties military pilot fly his 1500 hours (averaging 2 hours per sortie, which would equate to roughly 1650 hours if you considered block out and in time)?

I greatly appreciate any 2 cents on this one. Late. 40's

 

[minitour]

If you're entitled to it, what's the big deal? I'd say do it.

 

[qmaster3]

Hell I add .2 to my 172 sorties.

 

[Flechas]

Mini even adds .1 per post here, what's the big deal, go for it!

 

[minitour]

Mini even adds .1 per post here, what's the big deal, go for it!

...and .4 for each new thread

Seriously, if you're entitled to it, I'd say do it..

-mini

 

[AdlerDriver]

It is understood throughout aviation that military time is logged differently than civilian. If you used a consistent conversion and don't get excessive - you are well within your right to convert. I think .2 per sortie is very conservative and wouldn't get you in trouble with anyone with a clue. I've even seen airlines that allow you to convert by multiplying by .2 (adding 20%).

I used .2/sortie to be conservative. On my military sorties, we started 30 minutes prior to takeoff and probably took ~10-15 minutes after landing to shut down. If I had a hobbs meter on my 1500+ sorties, I probably would have logged another 750-800 hours.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

On my military sorties, we started 30 minutes prior to takeoff and probably took ~10-15 minutes after landing to shut down. If I had a hobbs meter on my 1500+ sorties, I probably would have logged another 750-800 hours.

Thirty minutes prior to takeoff?!?,,,what was it a shuttle launch? LOL just kiddin ya

 

[AdlerDriver]

Thirty minutes prior to takeoff?!?,,,what was it a shuttle launch? LOL just kiddin ya

Yup,
Most Eagle units allow 13 minutes to start and complete pre-taxi checks. You actually stay pretty busy for the entire time. At the F-15 training unit, we let the students have 15 minutes. Figure a 5-7 minute taxi depending on the base. The 2-ship/4-ship also has to get "armed" which can take 5-10 minutes depending on how many troops are doing it and what the aircraft has for weapons. Doesn't take too long to eat up 30 minutes.

 

[Snoopy58]

Engines running in chocks wouldn't, I don't think, count towards the FAA definition of block time, although everything after the aircraft first starts taxiing (including time sitting chocked in the arm/dearm area) would. I think the FAA definition includes something about first movement with the intention of going flying, or words to that effect. Hobbs time probably overstates such time slightly, but most GA doesn't spend nearly so much time sitting still with the engine running before starting to taxi.

I'd be pretty careful about going to the FAA with an application stating 1500 hours when the AF record shows a lower number -- you're rolling the dice on a Fed accepting your conversion factor, and while it seems reasonable to all of us here, your friendly neighborhood Fed might not see it the same way, and then "you're in a heap 'O trouble, boy!" If it's really important that you get the ATP asap & the 1500 isn't going to happen, I'd make a call to the local FSDO first & get their answer to the question. That way, if there's any doubt when you show up with the application in hand, you have the out that so-n-so said it was okay.

best wishes,

Snoopy

 

[Pistlpetet]

An airline or employer willing to add some bonus time to a military aviator's flight time is a COMPANY POLICY. Just as it is also a COMPANY POLICY if they do not want to allow you to count any PIC time as a military aviator unless you are actually the Aircraft Commander (Not taking Part 61 into consideration).

The FAA works off of the FARs, and unless you can find it in the FARs where it talks of a military conversion factor, it obviously does not apply to FAA Pilot Certification, or Logging of flight time for certification.

The safest way for military pilots to keep all their flight time straight (own logbook), is to log it as is...the way your service counts flight time. Then if you show up for a job, you let the COMPANY decide if they want to give you any conversion factor based off of your actual time. The time that corresponds to your Military paperwork.

If you take it upon yourself to deem that you deserve extra time (Cause I am a big bad military pilot) eventually your flight time is going to get all screwed up, and an anal airline is going to see that you are trying to inflate your times.

One can rationalize about how Joe Hobbs time logs his time, but you are a military pilot, and need to take the good with the bad about that situation. You can't have your cake and eat it to always. You are already well ahead of Joe Hobbs time.

Do it the right way to keep things simple.

 

[TGR]

You got 1400 now. Just wait the month or two and go when you hae the 1500. I started adding .3 to every sortie when I was in the C-5 and later went back and corrected my logbook. I log mil as T/O to land and Civ as block time. Its much easier later on when you are applying to just add the conversions you are allowed to from that particular company. Many have thier own rules for military time and they differ greatly. If you just add it now, you will run into a situation where you are subtracting out your .3 persortie and then adding thier particular conversion. That all said, they are just going to go by what on your Form 5 anyway.

 

[rstev1955]

Ditto to the last few posts. Your official flight time is what the military says it is. You are operating under THEIR rules, not FAA rules. You don't even have to HAVE an FAA license to log military time, and I am fairly certain most miltary pilots don't keep their FAA physicals up to date unless they are flying privately on the side. While some airlines may allow you to add time (for their interview process only) it is not official time you can log in your logbook. You will get the required time soon enough, and it will still be MUCH sooner than any of your civilian counterparts.

 

[urflyingme?!]

Well I don't have any knowledge on the subject, but I DO know one thing. Don't mess with Joe FED, forget about Joe Hobbs.
PS, Thanks for putting your butt on the line out there, while us Civvy guys were stiing pretty at home!

 

[qmaster3]

You will get the required time soon enough, and it will still be MUCH sooner than any of your civilian counterparts.

Not if he can't add the .2

 

[AArider]

Ditto to the last few posts. Your official flight time is what the military says it is. You are operating under THEIR rules, not FAA rules. You don't even have to HAVE an FAA license to log military time, and I am fairly certain most miltary pilots don't keep their FAA physicals up to date unless they are flying privately on the side. While some airlines may allow you to add time (for their interview process only) it is not official time you can log in your logbook. You will get the required time soon enough, and it will still be MUCH sooner than any of your civilian counterparts.

Your official flight time is not what the military says it is. Your official Military flight time is how you log it according to your particular military regs (ie: from takeoff to landing +5 minutes). However, if you hold an equivalent FAA license for the equipment you fly, then there shouldn't be any reason not to log the flight time (in accordance w/ civilan/FAA regs) in another log book. So, you could actually have 2 logbooks. I would take the "civilan" logbook to your ATP checkride.

By the way, most Guard and Reserve Military pilot do hold an FAA Class 1 or 2 physical, and quite a few AD guys also (the ones that do flying on the side and/or applying for flying jobs).

In any case, when you interview for an airline job, each airline treats military time differently. Therefore, I recommend taking all your logbooks to the interview, and also creating a 1 page summary sheet in accordance with the particular airline regulations. Just make sure you can justify your conversion factor to the airline.

Good Luck.

 

[rstev1955]

Your official flight time is not what the military says it is. Your official Military flight time is how you log it according to your particular military regs (ie: from takeoff to landing +5 minutes). .

Isn't that what i said??? The military says it is whatever their regs tell you to log.

However, if you hold an equivalent FAA license for the equipment you fly, then there shouldn't be any reason not to log the flight time (in accordance w/ civilan/FAA regs) in another log book. So, you could actually have 2 logbooks. I would take the "civilan" logbook to your ATP checkride.

This is where I differ with you. Fiirst, most military aircraft do not have a civilian counterpart. Yes I know a lot of the heavier aircraft do, but most others do not. Second, we log flight time based on the rules we are operating under. We are NOT operating under civilian rules, we are operating under military rules. I base this on Part 61, Section 61.73h which states for a military pilot, evidentiary documentation is:

(4) A certified U.S. Armed Force logbook or an appropriate official U.S. Armed Force form or summary may be used to demonstrate flight time in military aircraft as a member of a U.S. Armed Force.

You might find someone who will allow you to use your own logbook (padded) as evidence, but I certainly would not risk my civilian license on it.

By the way, most Guard and Reserve Military pilot do hold an FAA Class 1 or 2 physical, and quite a few AD guys also (the ones that do flying on the side and/or applying for flying jobs).

My post said "unless they are flying privately on the side". I was not considering Guard and Reserve, who probably already HAVE 1500 hours. And yes, I agree that mliitary pilots getting ready to job search should get a Class I. The vast majority of AD mliitary pilots, however, do not.


Bottom line: Log whatever you want to, but be prepared to accept the consequences when you are questioned why your logbook does not match your military records.

 

[Tigers]

Fly what you can, log what you need!!!!

 

[Huggyu2]

I'll bet the major airlines/employers use the "standard" of flight time +5 minutes. If you use more, then you are setting yourself up for a failed interview. Do you really need the extra 50 hours that padding the hours will give you. Everyone I know that went to United used the "5 minute" rule. I heard of others that didn't, and didn't get hired.
Yeah, go ahead.... start the furlough jokes.

 

[rstev1955]

I'll bet the major airlines/employers use the "standard" of flight time +5 minutes.

If it was up to me I would never hire someone who showed up at an interview with a logbook that does not match their military records.

 

[Snoopy58]

I think you'd have plenty of company, rstev1995. Padding a logbook is a pretty grave offense among pilots, and there just don't tend to be very many acceptable answers to "my records say I have X hours, but because ______ I'm giving myself some more." Now, some companies in their hiring process will do such manipulations for their own considerations, such as counting tactical jet time double, or weighting military time at 150%, or adding .3 per sortie, or whatever. But that's their own computation for their hiring process, not an FAA thing.

Now, if someone has kept a logbook since day 1, and each entry notes an exact block-out time (that the aircraft began moving for the purpose of powered flight, per the FAA definitions) and an exact block-in time, with full tail number, intermediate stops (i.e. 3 T&G's at KXYZ), precise night time & instrument time (as hours/minutes, not .4), types of approaches performed (i.e. ILS @ KABC), instructor signatures for training rides & evaluator signatures for the checkrides, notation of which sorties one actually held the "A" code (designated PIC), etc etc etc, THEN you might have a decent case for "this is what I actually flew, block to block, and it's more accurate than the AF records." Some places still wouldn't want to see that, they'd want to compare apples to apples, i.e. your AF record to everyone else's AF records, but the FAA might be willing to look at your block-to-block numbers.

HOWEVER, to just go back arbitrarily after the fact and declare that the AF records must be short & it'd be more accurate to give myself an extra 100 hours, is exactly the sort of padding that pilots despise so much. Everybody would like to have more time, but your time is what the records say it is (be it an AFORMS printout, a logbook written by hand, a printout from an airline job, whatever), and I doubt the FAA pilots will be look any more kindly on a phantom hundred hours than anybody else will.

And then, as I alluded to in my previous post, the Feds may give you the "you're in a heap O trouble, boy" treatment, since they probably have some harsh things to say about somebody who puts down false numbers on government application forms.

 

[Foties]

Alright the verdict is out

Thank you all for the great insight. Like I said earlier, I am not trying to rush life or be shady. It all comes down to financial needs. The median home price has hit $629,000 in my county and my ATP will greatly assist my ability to just get by financially. I have decided to be patient, guard bum a little harder after the civilian job and wait for the military experience bennies later in the career. Be safe out there, Late.

40's