aca updates

[zkmayo]

"I think there are a lot of people to blame for this, none of which are the ACA pilot group. Our "union brothers" who went to work for Freedom started this downward spiral. "

AMEN, and you know, these people will never be my brothers.

KingAirKiddo and Walthsky,

Good posts. Keep an open mind like you have and attend a road show. The MEC and the negotiating commitee have worked very hard on this and even though I am as of yet undecided, I am sure they have negotiated this TA with what they believe is the best interests of all ACA pilots in mind. It is up to the voting membership of this pilot group to decide whether they are correct or not. By all means, get to a roadshow and get the facts about the TA and then decide. It will be interesting to see the fine print and digest the details.

Good luck,

FRogJ jet capt

 

[j41driver]

Re: unbelievable..

I had a senior cpt. tell me (3rd person) that he would rather have more pilots furloughed (like me) than him take a paycut. Nice f'in morals.

So actually this senior captain didn't really tell you anything.

 

[KingAirKiddo]

Entire post retracted except the following:

I agree...those self-serving b@stards who went to Freedom are definitely NOT my brothers either.

 

[Gndedbyfurlough]

Im with you machdog1 and others with similiar opinions. Listen at the roadshow before you jump to conclusions.
I am also on first year pay and live paycheck to paycheck. I think after all of the training and time and effort that it hase taken to get there the low pay is definatly an insult, but......
I am furloughed from another carrier and don't look foreward to being back on unemployment and feeling vulnerabal to sickness and injury because I cant afford insurance for my wife and daughter who is due to be born soon. I will do what I can to help us be competitive in the market, but I won't sell out for low pay to make management richer either. Lets here the facts try to trust our leadership hear both sides of the story and finally make AN EDJUCATED DECISION based on facts not emotion. Those senior people who are full out against cuts are also greatly cushioned by seniorty, with that piece of mind maybe this would be an easier decision??

 

[Snakum]

AN EDJUCATED DECISION

 

[walkthasky]

nothing ??

Well (j41 driver), i was standing right there, and i guess youre right i wasnt being talked to DIRECTLY. I was standing slightly to the side and maybe 3 feet away. But he said plenty for me and for other f/o's to hear ( as i previously posted). Whats your point anyway ?

 

[Blueridge]

Dangerous Assumptions...

Just a word of caution for all those thinking that this TA will guarantee us continued profitablity and expansion.

This TA guarantees us one thing and one thing only. We will make less than we would have without the TA.

Sure UAL has to pick us to affirm the TA but so what. It does not say that UAL has to expand us or even to keep us at our current level. UAL could very well use us at half our current capacity or less.

This TA does not bring back those who have been furloughed nor prevent anyone else from being furloughed.

This TA does not allow us to revisit the necessity of pay cuts if by chance the company winds up doing better than expected. We'd have to wait five painful years to do that.

Remember too that we are fighting for the business of a carrier that is in bankruptcy. There is no guarantee that they will emerge successfully. What happens if UAL accepts our bid but subsequently liquidates? Then we have an affirmed and binding TA that will surely be used against us when we go looking for new business.

Bottom line, don't read into what isn't there. I applaud the MEC for their dedication but don't follow them blindly. Make your own decision.

BR
FRJ CA

 

[KingAirKiddo]

These are all valid points...hopefully the roadshows will eliminate some of the ambiguity.

 

[j41driver]

Re: nothing ??

Well (j41 driver), i was standing right there, and i guess youre right i wasnt being talked to DIRECTLY. I was standing slightly to the side and maybe 3 feet away. But he said plenty for me and for other f/o's to hear ( as i previously posted). Whats your point anyway ?

The way I took your original post was that this senior guy told some guy who told another guy who then told you about it. I misunderstood you there. If you heard it from the horse's mouth then that's different. Sorry.

 

[neflyguy]

A common theme I've seen here, 'if the MEC and the negoatiating comitte have brought this back it must be a good TA.'

Lets remember one thing, it is not their job to determine if it is good or not, only to bring it back to the rank and file for a vote. Do not think that because this is the best the negotiating group could do (and by the way I have a great amount of respect for them). Do not assume that because the TA has been brought back for a vote, that it is autamtically endorsed by the union.
This is bargaining 101.

Listen to road shows, then think of what it will be like (especially for the younger guys) when you apply for a morrtgage, or get married, or have your first or second kid, or you upgrade.......
Ask the guys who have allready reached these turning points in their lives, how difficult it has been on what they make now. Our domiciles are BOS, IAD, ORD and CVG. The first 3 are some of the most expensive cities in the country, and I now one thing for certain that over the next 5 years the cost of living will not go down!!!

I do not understand why everyone is so married to United. They are not the only game in town. Yes to change partners would be painfull in the begining, but could be much better in the long run.
We did not even have to negotiate, we could play hard ball and make the company stick to the contract they signed. Do any of you believe that when things get better which they will, the company will let US NEGOTIATE A NEW TA IN OUR FAVOR.

Just think of you getting your first mortgage, and being embarrased at how much we make, or talking to a financial planner about putting your kids through college.

I will listen, and then I will vote, no.... I hope the smarter members of the pilot group join me......

 

[surplus1]

A common theme I've seen here, 'if the MEC and the negoatiating comitte have brought this back it must be a good TA.'

No one can tell you all what to do or what is best and I'm not trying, but you hit the nail on the head with that one.

Your union, and I'm not talking about the ACA group, I'm talking about ALPA, has a concessionary mindset right now. It is focused on the needs of the majors (like everything else in ALPA). If "the majors" have to take concessions, then of course YOU have to take concessionS too, because that is in "their" interest.

Negotiations have taken place because somebody has decided that they should take place. As soon as that decision was made concessions were a foregone conclusion; there was no reason to negotiate at all if concessions were not the intent of the eventual outcome. Therefore the outcome should be no surprise.

Whom do you think recommended to your MEC that concessions were a "good idea"? Any chance it was the same people that "recommended" the Mesa contract? Who "recommended" what happened at ALG/PSA/PDT? Who "recommended" the 16-year Eagle contract? Who is there in the road shows (besides ACA pilots) "recommending" that you should take the deal? Will they be affected by it?

Originally posted by Blueridge

Just a word of caution for all those thinking that this TA will guarantee us continued profitablity and expansion.

This TA guarantees us one thing and one thing only. We will make less than we would have without the TA.

BINGO! You are 100% correct.

Sure UAL has to pick us to affirm the TA but so what. It does not say that UAL has to expand us or even to keep us at our current level. UAL could very well use us at half our current capacity or less.

Your batting average is still 1,000. What is the "purpose" of these concessions again?

Do you really believe that this is going to make UAL "pick you" when otherwise it would not?

This TA does not bring back those who have been furloughed nor prevent anyone else from being furloughed.

Right again, so who is it going to "help"? Is this actually going to protect your job? How?

This TA does not allow us to revisit the necessity of pay cuts if by chance the company winds up doing better than expected. We'd have to wait five painful years to do that.

You got that right too (except the wait will be more than five years). That translates to at least six to seven (counting negotiating time) to maybe get back to the numbers and rules you have today, minus the impact of COL increases that will undoubtedly occur in the interim.

Same question as before ... what is the true purpose of these concessions? Who are they going to "save" and from what?

Remember too that we are fighting for the business of a carrier that is in bankruptcy. There is no guarantee that they will emerge successfully. What happens if UAL accepts our bid but subsequently liquidates?

Another accurate statement, followed by a very pertinent question. I like the way you think.

If your TA is approved and UAL tanks or simply gives its business to a competitor, what happens next? Your Company will look for business elsewhere, and the most likely "elsewhere" will be ..... Delta ..... where your new "concessions" will likely force the other Delta Connections to match or better your concessions or the ones in the new SKYW TA or the AWAC agreement.

Bottom line .... little by little we are all being led like lemmings down the primrose path to making more and more concessions to profitable companies, none of which have so far benefited one single regional pilot and none of which is likely to do so. Meanwhile we race merrily along undermining each other, giving up our seniority to furloughed mainline pilots, sabotaging the negotiations at ASA and COEX and CHQ and benefiting whom? Management ... and a "labor union" with little if any concern for the welfare of its second class members.

BRAVO.

I wish you luck, but this is one regional pilot (an outsider at ACA), who does not comprehend the madness. We all seem caught up it the willing rush to poverty and our own detriment, without logic, without reason, and with no visible or even promised benefit. That brings us right back to square one ......

This TA [and all the others] guarantees us one thing and one thing only. We will make less than we would have without the TA.

(Emphasis supplied)

S - E - N - S - E - L - E - S - S.

 

[j41driver]

I will listen, and then I will vote, no.... I hope the smarter members of the pilot group join me......

I'm right there with ya on this one. NO fu*king way!

 

[Brother Francis]

Something I noticed

Machdog said (on another thread):

Chic whaa is the poor mans airline don't even bother working for them!!

Machdog also said (on this thread):

Vote the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** thing in so we can all keep are jobs and start growing again its not that bad of a cut....

Just thought it needed pointing out that while bashing a group that is standing up for themselves (and everyone else, for that matter) this soul advocates the capitulation of his own, to the detriment of ACA (and everyone else, for that matter).

 

[BlueRidger]

Machdog1 point of view is definitely in the minority at ACA. His attitude is even more so.

Most of Us are very willing to listen to our MEC and see what they have to say. They are a sharp group of people but most of the pilots see too many inefficencies in ACA's daily operations to justify this much of a pay cut for this long of a period. The SkyWest TA's 18 month duration has added fuel to this fire. If ACA were not at the bottm of the DOT's rankings I think the TA would be recieved a little more positively. The concession's do not make enough of a reduction in costs to make much of a difference in our bid to UAL (less than 1 CASM). Because of this most pilots think that the TA really will make no great impact on future growth and that ACA is too big of a piece of the UEX puzzle to just be dumped (i.e UAL's injunction). It is for these reasons that I believe most of the pilots are willing to take a gamble and shoot this TA down. And no one except mach dog 1 wants to rush into this with a yes.

Stay informed and VOTE!

On a side note if ACA loses the UAL flying we would apply to COMAIR to increase the Feed we give them in CVG. On a flight from LAN the other day I look at the connection sheet and out of 32 pax 25 were connecting to Comair, 6 to ACA and 1 to Mainline DAL Welcome to Comair Express!

 

[70Cuda]

"Nothing ventured, nothing gained!!!!"

To all of the gutless pilots out there who bend over in the slightest breeze in order to save what you call your pathetic jobs (that's right, Mesa. I'm talking especially about you!) you have only yourselves to blame for your sorry pay and lifestyle. We as regional pilots could have incredible leverage over management if only we could stick together and fight for the "standard." Unfortunately, there are too many "soft-minded, and selfish" pilots out there that only care about themselves. These "weak-link" pilots destroy our collective potential as a whole.

Can you not see that it's not management that sets our low standards!!!! Our pathetic pay is a reflection of ourselves. As a group we have no "backbone" are "selfish" and lack the "courage" to do what we know is right deep down in our heart, which is to stand up to management even if it means the potential of getting furloughed. If all pilot groups stood to fight together then management wouldn't be able to pit us against each other and there wouldn't be a race to the bottom, or furloughs, for that matter.

Getting furloughed is not the end of the World. If you don't have the confidence in yourself to believe you can find another job to take care of your family then you have serious issues. You become the weak link and will bring down the "standards."

I've been furloughed and can tell you it's not the end of the World.

Nothing is ever gained by continually giving up what you have fought for. Fighting for what is "right" will always be risky and have consequenses, but the rewards are usually worth it. Hell, if our "Founding Fathers" didn't have the guts to risk everything they had in order to fight the Brits for independence then we'd all be eating "fish & chips" right now.

I will vote "No" for this TA, and no matter what happens I will at least have my self-respect. 5 Years is just far to long!!!!