ACA told to close BOS Base?

[46Driver]

Columbia is ACA's maintenance base. We are also the only ones who fly the DoJet for Delta.

 

[SaladShooter]

noname-

I had hoped you would have provided me with an intelligent debate about the buisness plan of IAIR. It looks like you did not take my advise and research beofe you posted a response to me. I see it took you a little over 13 minutes to post a reply to my message and I know you could not have reviewed the documents on the ACA website about IAIR in that amount of time. If you would have reviewed the slideshow you would have seen where the passangers for IAIR are going to be coming from. Get educated first then we will debate this topic!

Just using a little bit of logic in this case. If UAL was so sure they can compete against and destroy ACA why are they afraid of letting us go. It was proven in court that UAL was behind the MESA takeover bid from the start. (That is why we got the injunction) If they did not think we would survive why would they have cared?????? They could just pick up the pieces in a year or so and get the whole company for a song of a price, yet they chose the other option.....I wonder why????? The reason is UAL along with the rest of the industry has no idea if this plan can work, if it does it will revolutionize how you manage an airline. It will prove that smart managment can think outside the box and deliver a quality product at a resonable price. Like I said before the current buisness practice of how to run an airline does not work in todays econonmy, the world has changed and it is time to try something different. If it works or not is up to the flying public to decide.

In addition you said you wanted to bring a reality check to Indy Air....over the last year I have seen UAL file Chpt 11, UAL reneg on its 2003 rates for compensation, Bain Consulting telling me I am over paid yet they are racking up 700/hrin fees, ACA managment telling me they do not care if I can pay my mortgage(TM ORD-April 2003) as I am paid too much because MESA just took a pay cut, UAL offereing us a crappy deal with 2-6% rate of return with a sunset clause thrown in for good luck, I AIR announced, UAL, MESA and that sociopath JO trying to take over and pull a CCAIR on us, a injunction against MESA and UAL, Do328's breaking left and right around us, DALPA getting ready to drop the boom on DAL with the scope clause....do I need to go on. I believe I have lived more reality in the last year than I care to ever see again. So walk a mile in our shoes before saying we need a reality check!

 

[MONKEY]

First let me say, that I am not anti-iair.

I do however see a little bit of faulty logic in the following.

Just using a little bit of logic in this case. If UAL was so sure they can compete against and destroy ACA why are they afraid of letting us go. It was proven in court that UAL was behind the MESA takeover bid from the start. (That is why we got the injunction) If they did not think we would survive why would they have cared?????? They could just pick up the pieces in a year or so and get the whole company for a song of a price, yet they chose the other option.....I wonder why????? The reason is UAL along with the rest of the industry has no idea if this plan can work, if it does it will revolutionize how you manage an airline. It will prove that smart managment can think outside the box and deliver a quality product at a resonable price. Like I said before the current buisness practice of how to run an airline does not work in todays econonmy, the world has changed and it is time to try something different. If it works or not is up to the flying public to decide.

If ACA goes out on their own, even if they fail, their is still a great cost for UAL. They will need to ramp up another uex partner (air whiskey, SKW, and/or Mesa). This alone will come at a great cost.

Next they will have to compete with IAIR. Even if they feel like IAIR will fail, they will still lose a portion of their market to them for the period of time that IAIR is operating. In addition to this, they will most likely have to discount their fairs to compete, further cutting their income.

I am not saying that IAIR will fail, just trying to point out why it is in the best interest of UAL that Mesa would have been able to buy them out.

anyways, I wish you well.

 

[SaladShooter]

Why I do not totally disagree with you UAL has a nice trump card in the pocket. Under the new revenue sharing model UAL does not have to pay for ramp up costs, this cost is absorbed by the regional partner moving into a new domicle. So UAL will transfer flying to MESA, TSA, SKYWEST, AIR WILLY into IAD and not have to pay ramp up fees as thoses costs are paid for by the regionals per the new agreeement. Now UAL was smart for once and decided to buy the terminal itself that way no other aircline can leave them like this again. This is one of the reasons our managment decided against going with UAL, they can move you around and you will not get a check from them to cover the costs of opening new bases.


Now if they are so sure they can destroy us it would have been cheaper to flood the market with cheap tickets and take the loss of revenue upfront and pick up IAIR on the cheap at a later time. Instead they decided to try a takeover with MESA as the best defense against IAIR.

 

[RegionalFA]

well youve got it all figured out. even down to the part were no one else is going to be a factor. doesnt matter what kind of model you use you have to put passengers in the seat, and thats something that is yet to be seen, and no one can forecast. they are really pouring a mean cup of coolaid over there...

just like in theory communism could be the perfect government. unfortunately, humans don't always work the way figures on paper do.


Not that I don't wish you guys the best. I do. I don't neccesarily like all of the arrogance that I hear about some of it... but whatever. I hope it works out for the best.

 

[MONKEY]

saladshooter

Now if they are so sure they can destroy us it would have been cheaper to flood the market with cheap tickets and take the loss of revenue upfront and pick up IAIR on the cheap at a later time. Instead they decided to try a takeover with MESA as the best defense against IAIR.

In order to "flood the market with cheap tickets" they would have to replace the flying that you are currently doing. After they have replace you, it would be to late to pick up the pieces after iair had failed.

 

[SaladShooter]

When did I say we had it all figuired out???? When I look at my posting I see that I said-Will it work I do not know?

When is that saying we have it all figuired out? When I was talking about the future competitors of IAIR I am paraphrazing an document from Merril Lynch provided to me by several friends still working there. This document trys to theorize on the future of the airline industry and the possible impacts on the future. Not once did I say we will succeed no matter what. You need to read the posts more carefully in the future as you will not find me stating what you claim. What you have stated that came form me is incorrect and I fully expect you to correct your posts and be diligent in the future about not reading into something that is not really posted.

 

[SaladShooter]

Monkey-

I do not know if you work for UEX carrier but if you do send an email over to your CEO and ask him about some of the details of the revenue sharing contract that they signed. If he answers you might be surprised at what Bain Consulting worked into the contract with UAL.

UAL does not have to pay to replace us, they reassign other carriers that pay for it. They will not release us until the replacement is flying so they wil not lose any associated lift out of IAD. That means UAL can offer matched fares right out of the gate if they wish.

Now the problem they do have though is that over 60% of the outstations are ours, including the ticket counters and jetways/gate spaces. We have long term leases associated with them so UAL has to find other ticket counter space and gate space at those airports. With the ramp service, they are just transferring over to SKYWEST and they have to bear the brunt of the cost, but they are trying to get new gate space in UAL name to prevent this from happening again. None of this is new news and all of it is public knowlege and accesable with the right tools.

This thread has gone way off base and I apologize for this highjacking but I am a pilot with ACA and cannot stand to see the missimformation about this project floating around. Nobody at ACA that I have run into is arrogent about this project, most are happy to be getting away from UAL, and after the last 2 years who could blame us, and may be a little bit over the top. We all realize the risks associated with this project and over 97% voted to go on our own. This is a risky project but it does not present any more risk than staying with UAL mainline as an express carrier.

Once again I apologize for highjacking this thread and I consider the matter finished!

 

[House_X]

just like in theory communism could be the perfect government. unfortunately, humans don't always work the way figures on paper do.


Not that I don't wish you guys the best. I do. I don't neccesarily like all of the arrogance that I hear about some of it... but whatever. I hope it works out for the best.

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[GogglesPisano]

97%

That simple number sums up how the pilot group feels. Doubters should remember what the "experts" said about a little start-up named JetBlue.

I ... am optimistic

 

[JTrain]

SaladShooter

-Those were some great posts. I think you decisively TKO'd NoName (aka J.O. or some Freedom punk).

JTrain

 

[FlyComAirJets]

NoName, you truly exemplify the concept of the bottom feeder. It figures if you are Citizen Ornstein.

Comparing Independance Air to Air Tran is interesting, but off base. Besides, I would say they are doing quite well these days. But they started out small as a low-fare narrow gauge operator in entrenched hubs (ATL and MCO if you consider the original Air Tran) going primarily to leisure destinations. They contract out RJs to Air Whiskey.

Independance Air is not going to work? Not according to a jackal such as you, but in reality, they have as good a chance as any deregulation era carrier ever has. Lets see what they have in their favor: an improving economy, an established route system, near instant critical mass, trained personnel, near new or brand new aircraft, and good capitalization.

I would call that revolutionary.

 

[FHTEAGLE]

Transition...

SaladShooter -

Thanks for bringing some "outside of the cockpit" thinking to this...

Personally, I wouldn't care how much other people underestimate you... will be that much sweeter if it all goes according to plan...

Mind sharing your/ML's thoughts about the transition period starting with UAL exiting Ch11 (June?) and all the aircraft being available solely to IAIR? Sounds to me like some tricky resource allocation problems between covering IAIR's flying and UEX flying as its phased out. I vaguely remember something about options on another 25 CRJs... is that true and can they be exercised pronto?

Also, which of the following scenarios is most likely?

1. UAL exits ch.11 and lets the contract expire completely (allowing ACA to morph into IAIR all at once), then UAL rushes to refill the service a'la the Westair expansion 13 yr ago?

2. UAL/ACA sign a phase-out deal over a period of months? Pros and cons to both sides... ACA Pros: more startup $, able to roll out IAIR aircraft/cities as the rest of the resources will allow. ACA Cons: Allows their competition time to get settled in before the ink is dry on the brand, no "big boom" startup with all 40+ cities at once. UAL Pros: not having to rush-job startup UEX flying at IAD, chances to "test the waters" and see how hard it would be to break IAIR. UAL Cons: being forced to feed $ to your new competition...

3. USAir back into Ch. 11, UAL stays in long enough to get some kind of virtual or real merger, USAir dumps a hub to move to IAD and they harmonize routes... makes sense from a resource/aircraft/route standpoint, but probably not from a "how-to-finance this" standpoint... thoughts?

Or do the people with the dollar-green crystal ball see something else happening?

 

[Noam]

I think none of us can say with any certainty whether Indy Air will succeed or not.

However, something that concerns me is the amount of kool aid coming from ACA pilots on this board and those that I talk to jumpseating.

With such a risky venture I don't think it would be a bad idea for ACA pilots to have backup plans.

Noam

 

[GogglesPisano]

With such a risky venture I don't think it would be a bad idea for ACA pilots to have backup plans.

Noam

This can be said about every pilot in this profession save for the top 2/3 of the lists at a few select major carriers.

 

[Noam]

Your right, it can definately be said for many airlines these days.

However, I've jumpseated on ACA a lot and I think you guys are drinking a bit too much kool aid.

To be certain this thing is going to work, when load factors at LCC's are decreasing, when majors are putting up increasing competition, when ACA is going to fly a lot of expensive RJ's aroud, is a risk that I certaintly wouldn't want to take without having a back up plan.

 

[Mallard]

Perhaps you might mention just how much kool-aid we've been drinking the next time you catch a free ride on us.

 

[exphojump]

Mmmmmm kool aid tastes good,

Just kidding, each airline is a high risk gamble.

The reason you see such irrational exuberance is because of the last year and a half roller coaster ride. The UAL CH11, bain process, UAL TA(arrrgh), then possible independence squelched by a Mesa hostile takeover, and finally Mesa staved off with lawyers guns & money, it ain't so bad.

RJ's are too expensive at 15.8 cents a seat mile, right? What if you use them on an average stage length of 341nm? Wow small uncomfortable aircraft in the air for an average of less than and hour and with an extra inch of legroom, TV's don't seem as important on quick flights. This means an average cost of $54.00 a seat per departure, not bad. Plus it allows the 319s an average stage length of 1400 nm which gives us the lower CASM on this aircraft than LUV or JBLU.

Are there obstacles, you bet. I believe we will survive the first 5 years easily, provided someone like Northwest doesn't buy us with a stock swap. IMO the Northeast will be a blood bath in 5 years. LUV, AAI, JBLU, Spirit, ATA, ACAI, and Roam will add capacity and compete agressively with the Legacy carriers. Good for customers bad for margins.

What worries me is if DAL goes CH 11. This will allow them to renegotiate leases, pilot contracts, and debt. They will also be able to orient mainline towards a Song type model and DCI towards a model like ours on CRJs. I believe DAL emerging from Ch 11 will be the 800lb gorilla. With a fare structure based on cost instead of some skewed logic they might increase revenue and local traffic from hubs like CVG.

It often cost 2 - 3 times as much to depart from CVG to a destination as it does to leave DAY, SDF, or LEX and connect through CVG to a destination, wasteful.

May DAL never go CH 11.

 

[Noam]

Mallard,


I'm just saying if I were in your shoes I would have a couple back up plans, that is all.

I used to be familiar with Tom Moore and I know he can blow a lot of smoke at times.

NOam

 

[GogglesPisano]

Noam:

Sounds like you always have to have the last word.

(Prove me right, please!)