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ACA told to close BOS Base?
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you guys are so ready to dump your major partners and your going to be left with nothing by independance air. How many upstarts actually make it? look at great plains. greats plains had a good idea also but couldnt make it. now indy is jumping in the market with 100 airplanes to fill right away. be careful what you wish for, you just mite get it.
NoName said:
Well, on the Delta side we are making minimal profit and the long term prognosis on the Dorniers is not good. It is better to get out from under a lemon aircraft while we can.
On the UAL side, we didn't have much choice with the offer UAL made us. Much better choice to go out on our own with the infrastructure of the IAD hub, the weakness of our two biggest competitors (USAir and UAL) and before JetBlue and AirTran can expand with their large aircraft orders (EMB-170's and 737's respectfully).
We "mite" make it, we "mite" not; either is preferable to the status quo.
its not flamebait, its common sense. what is indy air going to be able to offer on a crj from iad, that ual isnt going to be able to offer in a crj from iad. there is just all this talk of getting rid of the partners asap. going from a somewhat stable environment into one that could be the beginning of the end. do we need to start listing startup carriers with good ideas that didnt make it? proair, midway, national, airsouth, greatplains, etc. etc....etc.......etc....
NoName said:
Independence Air could offer that UAL currently does not:
1. affordable air fares out of IAD (no more $600 tickets IAD-SYR on a CRJ)
2. more frequent svc (more efficient usage of a/c, helping to further decrease costs and benefit customer); ACA's CRJs since UAL chap 11 avg 8.5 hrs a day; under Indy theyll avg. 11.5; Airbus upwards of 14.
3. much better customer service that is poor at IAD UAL (this has hamstrung ACA for years and yes, ACA does have some bad apples here too). You cant tell me honestly that UAX will have better customer svc with Mesa at IAD. There is a big push at ACA to flush the old culture and bring in a new attitude with a sense of purpose. Not an easy thing to do but it will be essential to the success of Iair.
I predict ACA will exit the DALConn program within a year. As long as it doesnt cost 400 jobs, it could be a good thing in the long run. Eliminate conflict of interest with DAL, allow ACA to concentrate on LCC, get rid of Dojets, etc.
You say alot of LCCs fail. I wont debate that. But know other carrier will start from Day 1 with as much on the table to start as Independence. BTW, even if we fail, at least we failed on our terms not someone elses.
Good luck to all.
FlyComAirJets
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2002
- Posts
- 323
NoName, the previous airlines that you cite just goes to show that you do not understand what is going on here. Independance Air is not merely another rehashed upstart from the primordial ooze, they are a revolutionary product the likes of which has not been seen in the deregulated era. This is the gutsiest move I have ever seen.
These guys are rewriting the book. You don't think they have been paying attention to where all those pax they have been carrying are going or how they bought their tickets? Travel agents are history and so are big centralized reservation centers. Wake up!
Now, alas, I fear a wheezing DAL along with a bit of help from a staggering UAL might use us as the instrument to teach this and any future upstarts a lesson. Go get 'em, guys.
These guys are rewriting the book. You don't think they have been paying attention to where all those pax they have been carrying are going or how they bought their tickets? Travel agents are history and so are big centralized reservation centers. Wake up!
Now, alas, I fear a wheezing DAL along with a bit of help from a staggering UAL might use us as the instrument to teach this and any future upstarts a lesson. Go get 'em, guys.
Re: Figure this one out?
Independence Air has delivery schedule (as of now) for the first Airbus to be delivered in Sept 04 and flying the line in Nov 04. I don't know if we will be using Ryan at all, there has been little talk of them lately.
Our agreement with DL allows them the right to cancel for convienence with a six month notice and our right to "put" the do-jets over to DL. Listen to the Tom Moore hotline at 866-465-9309 to hear it directly from the boss man.
Certainly you realize that the DO jet issue is a pawn in the DL to DL mec talks over pay at DL mainline.
Whats going to happen? Your guess is as good as mine. Either DL is forced to call the contract and eats the DO jets, the DL pilots are somehow convinced to "allow" the DO jets to continue as is or -shudder- DL goes the CH 11 route and spanks their mainline pilots as well as ACA by using the bankruptcy process.
Never flew the plane, don't know much about it, but it is sad that the engines are wearing out so quickly and it has had some sort of electrical problem. Our guys flying it say it was a kick to be leveling off at 11K halfway through the left turn doing the whitestone climb off of LGA.
Tim47SIP said:Maybe the Ryan busses won't count as they won't be on ACA's certificate. Could be a year or so before ACA starts flying theirs which could keep them in the DCI family a little longer. Or maybe Delta has found a way to bypass DALPA's scope using a grandfather clause. Guess we just have to wait and see.
Delta has been fairly quiet lately with the negotiations concerning DALPA. Something is brewing.
Independence Air has delivery schedule (as of now) for the first Airbus to be delivered in Sept 04 and flying the line in Nov 04. I don't know if we will be using Ryan at all, there has been little talk of them lately.
Our agreement with DL allows them the right to cancel for convienence with a six month notice and our right to "put" the do-jets over to DL. Listen to the Tom Moore hotline at 866-465-9309 to hear it directly from the boss man.
Certainly you realize that the DO jet issue is a pawn in the DL to DL mec talks over pay at DL mainline.
Whats going to happen? Your guess is as good as mine. Either DL is forced to call the contract and eats the DO jets, the DL pilots are somehow convinced to "allow" the DO jets to continue as is or -shudder- DL goes the CH 11 route and spanks their mainline pilots as well as ACA by using the bankruptcy process.
Never flew the plane, don't know much about it, but it is sad that the engines are wearing out so quickly and it has had some sort of electrical problem. Our guys flying it say it was a kick to be leveling off at 11K halfway through the left turn doing the whitestone climb off of LGA.
WhiteCloud
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2002
- Posts
- 1,012
The difference is that ACA/I air is not really a "startup" carrier. They already have airplanes that air flying and making money. It's really just a change in focus and type of operation. UAL is a bankrupt company who wasn't willing to honor their agreement with ACA even though it was making both money. All you can do with "partners" like that is say goodbye. ACA/I air IS moving on.NoName said:
The 328Jet is a great airplane when everything is working on it. Saying it has great climb performance is an understatement. It is perfect for most of the flights we do with it (short haul, high freq).
That being said, I have never, ever, ever seen a plane that is as tempermental as this SOB. Gen Fails bc its first flight cold am, strange erroneous CAS messages, switch/solenoid/proxi problems...usually Cntrl/Alt/Del fixes 95%, but not always. The engine problems are something the avg line pilot doesnt deal with. I only know of one time where a crew shut down an engine in flight. Most of the times if there are FADEC problems, its known even before we leave the gate. As a rule, if you get it started, its going to run til you get to where youre going. The problems that are plaguing the engine are a result of a cooling problem that has resulted in early overhauls.
In general, its a fun airplane to fly; however, calling it a hangar queen/mx pig would not be an insult or off base.
That being said, I have never, ever, ever seen a plane that is as tempermental as this SOB. Gen Fails bc its first flight cold am, strange erroneous CAS messages, switch/solenoid/proxi problems...usually Cntrl/Alt/Del fixes 95%, but not always. The engine problems are something the avg line pilot doesnt deal with. I only know of one time where a crew shut down an engine in flight. Most of the times if there are FADEC problems, its known even before we leave the gate. As a rule, if you get it started, its going to run til you get to where youre going. The problems that are plaguing the engine are a result of a cooling problem that has resulted in early overhauls.
In general, its a fun airplane to fly; however, calling it a hangar queen/mx pig would not be an insult or off base.
GogglesPisano
Pawn, in game of life
- Joined
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- 3,939
zkmayo said:
1. fare...look for ual to match fares.
2. More freq? Thats yet to be seen. the future of ual exp is yet to be determined in iad.
3. better customer service no doubt im sure. however youll have to compete with freq flyer programs and folks who have been with united for years.
--------
indy cant even pitch the IFE as most airplanes in their fleet wont have it.
FlyComAirJets said:
revloutionary? hardly. gutsy, yes. those passengers they have been carrying have been flying ual/dal not aca and didnt buy the ticket b/c aca was flying it. (ok maybe a few). How is this a revolutionary product?????? low fare carrier with crjs and narrowbodys? airtran does that. Im not saying anything against the pilot or management group, they were pushed up against a wall, and rather then whore out, they went on there own. thats not the point im trying to make. my point is i just dont think its going to work.
SaladShooter
Active member
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- Posts
- 28
NoName-
Please educate yourself before you open your mouth. Go to the web site download the investor presentation and take a look at it. Crunch the numbers and look at them. After you look at it OBJECTIVELY compare it to the airline models that are now being offered. There is not ONE I repeat ONE other airline that is going to try what we are trying. That is we are going to try run a hub and spoke with the mentality of a point to point operation. We are going to lower our CASM not by getting rid of the smaller aircraft and replacing them with larger ones but by flying the little ones more. If we fly the airplanes more it is more cost effective on the fixed costs. AirTran does not do what we are trying, JetBlue does not do it, SWA does not do it and NONE of the legacy carriers do it.
TM and KS are trying something different because the current way of running an airline is not working. The low utilization of the aircraft and the high fixed costs add up to uncontrollable costs that airlines just cannot handle anymore. We are going to try the WalMart approach, we keep it simple, we keep it eficient and most important we keep it cheap! UAL cannot match our prices out of IAD, why you ask, because the Express carriers are flying them that means not only does UAL have to make money but so do the Express carriers that are flying them. That is two profit margins that have to be accounted for in the ticket prices. UAL is coming out of BNK and cannot afford to lose money as the investors will back out fast. UAL cannot offer the frequency that IAIR will offer also, why you ask, they do not have the gate space nor do they have the assets in place to match IAIR. We are going to be running 8 continous banks a day with an average of 40 flights out at a bank period. UAL's new terminal will not be that big. (By the way the new Express carriers will not have any MX hangers available in IAD as we own the only one. So all MX will have to be performed at an outstation or in the open. So if they break an airplane in IAD they are SOL if it is a big problem unless they fix it in a snow storm or they ferry it out to an outstation.)
Now this is all based on the assumption UAL is going to survive, which we all know is a crap shoot. Even some of the UAL pilots I give rides to say they are having creeping doubts about the survival in the long term. They like to point to the pay cuts they took and the recent anouncement of a new paint scheme as mismangement.
Now will it work?? I do not know but I can tell you this I used to work at Merril Lynch as an analiyst and I have never seen anybody try this or even talk about trying this in the past. If we can get through the first couple of years we will be fine, I am not worried about UAL or USAIR as I believe they will cease to be a factor for us in the future as they will dissolve or shrink so much they are no longer a threat. JetBlue is too new to know if it will be a major competitor as they are still on the MX holiday and because of that the numbers are not complete for a really detailed look at the financial health of the company. SWA is out of BWI, a hell of a drive so they will little to no competition in the short term. AirTran has its sights set on the Midwest US so they should not be a factor for awhile. DAL could be a problem but from what I hear from some friends at ML is SONG is not living up to the hype as of yet. Last I heard a 60% load factor since inception up to November of 03, not a complete analysis but unless it gets better it will not be around for long. ( Though is DAL files BNK and leaves us with the DODO's that would create a whole new problem.) AMR is not really a big player in IAD nor is NWA so I do not see them as problems.
Sorry about the length but please get educated on the issues before you chip in with your 2 cents. Now if you have any educated financial objections to this idea please post them and we can debate them as I am always open to new ideas and even I can overlook something.
I am a financial guy by trade, and so I please excuse any spelling mistakes you might come across.
Please educate yourself before you open your mouth. Go to the web site download the investor presentation and take a look at it. Crunch the numbers and look at them. After you look at it OBJECTIVELY compare it to the airline models that are now being offered. There is not ONE I repeat ONE other airline that is going to try what we are trying. That is we are going to try run a hub and spoke with the mentality of a point to point operation. We are going to lower our CASM not by getting rid of the smaller aircraft and replacing them with larger ones but by flying the little ones more. If we fly the airplanes more it is more cost effective on the fixed costs. AirTran does not do what we are trying, JetBlue does not do it, SWA does not do it and NONE of the legacy carriers do it.
TM and KS are trying something different because the current way of running an airline is not working. The low utilization of the aircraft and the high fixed costs add up to uncontrollable costs that airlines just cannot handle anymore. We are going to try the WalMart approach, we keep it simple, we keep it eficient and most important we keep it cheap! UAL cannot match our prices out of IAD, why you ask, because the Express carriers are flying them that means not only does UAL have to make money but so do the Express carriers that are flying them. That is two profit margins that have to be accounted for in the ticket prices. UAL is coming out of BNK and cannot afford to lose money as the investors will back out fast. UAL cannot offer the frequency that IAIR will offer also, why you ask, they do not have the gate space nor do they have the assets in place to match IAIR. We are going to be running 8 continous banks a day with an average of 40 flights out at a bank period. UAL's new terminal will not be that big. (By the way the new Express carriers will not have any MX hangers available in IAD as we own the only one. So all MX will have to be performed at an outstation or in the open. So if they break an airplane in IAD they are SOL if it is a big problem unless they fix it in a snow storm or they ferry it out to an outstation.)
Now this is all based on the assumption UAL is going to survive, which we all know is a crap shoot. Even some of the UAL pilots I give rides to say they are having creeping doubts about the survival in the long term. They like to point to the pay cuts they took and the recent anouncement of a new paint scheme as mismangement.
Now will it work?? I do not know but I can tell you this I used to work at Merril Lynch as an analiyst and I have never seen anybody try this or even talk about trying this in the past. If we can get through the first couple of years we will be fine, I am not worried about UAL or USAIR as I believe they will cease to be a factor for us in the future as they will dissolve or shrink so much they are no longer a threat. JetBlue is too new to know if it will be a major competitor as they are still on the MX holiday and because of that the numbers are not complete for a really detailed look at the financial health of the company. SWA is out of BWI, a hell of a drive so they will little to no competition in the short term. AirTran has its sights set on the Midwest US so they should not be a factor for awhile. DAL could be a problem but from what I hear from some friends at ML is SONG is not living up to the hype as of yet. Last I heard a 60% load factor since inception up to November of 03, not a complete analysis but unless it gets better it will not be around for long. ( Though is DAL files BNK and leaves us with the DODO's that would create a whole new problem.) AMR is not really a big player in IAD nor is NWA so I do not see them as problems.
Sorry about the length but please get educated on the issues before you chip in with your 2 cents. Now if you have any educated financial objections to this idea please post them and we can debate them as I am always open to new ideas and even I can overlook something.
I am a financial guy by trade, and so I please excuse any spelling mistakes you might come across.
well youve got it all figured out. even down to the part were no one else is going to be a factor. doesnt matter what kind of model you use you have to put passengers in the seat, and thats something that is yet to be seen, and no one can forecast. they are really pouring a mean cup of coolaid over there...
In truth noname there will most likely be a "competitive response" by UAL and our management takes it seriously.
Several things to consider though:
1. UAL will have cash balance and cash flow restrictions placed on them by the ATSB loan process. Look at USAir's current squeeze to see what I'm saying here. They (USAir) have to maintain $1B cash on hand and a positive monthly cash flow. Similar restrictions will limit the severity and duration of UAL's predatory pricing response.
2. Even with UAL's restructuring they will have the ATSB loan to pay on, in addition to pension funding catch-ups to pay, in addition to having just pissed off every airport and vendor they work with. Add this to their legendary customer service and we feel we can do a good job competing in the cities we choose to fly to. We aren't going to go to europe, south america and asia out of IAD, just domestic markets we feel will have a good traffic response to our fares and frequency offerings.
All told, the ACA coolaide tastes a lot better than the UAL hemlock that was on the table earlier.
Several things to consider though:
1. UAL will have cash balance and cash flow restrictions placed on them by the ATSB loan process. Look at USAir's current squeeze to see what I'm saying here. They (USAir) have to maintain $1B cash on hand and a positive monthly cash flow. Similar restrictions will limit the severity and duration of UAL's predatory pricing response.
2. Even with UAL's restructuring they will have the ATSB loan to pay on, in addition to pension funding catch-ups to pay, in addition to having just pissed off every airport and vendor they work with. Add this to their legendary customer service and we feel we can do a good job competing in the cities we choose to fly to. We aren't going to go to europe, south america and asia out of IAD, just domestic markets we feel will have a good traffic response to our fares and frequency offerings.
All told, the ACA coolaide tastes a lot better than the UAL hemlock that was on the table earlier.
Last edited:
Always deferred
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2003
- Posts
- 175
Ok everyone --- obviously NoName is here to:
1. Incite a flame war
2. Is Johnny O still trying desperately to be heard
3. Some jealous MESA guy (judging by crj 700/900)
4. Some other jealous pilot who can only make himself feel better by trying to throw a rainshower on everyone else's hopes
5. Some middle schooler who can't even spell correctly.
6. All of the above
I say there is nothing more frustrating to his type then when people just ignore him. He will continually log on to see what kind of responses he gets, and will be beyond devastated when no one is replying to him or giving him the attention he so desperately craves.
My point : IGNORE HIM
1. Incite a flame war
2. Is Johnny O still trying desperately to be heard
3. Some jealous MESA guy (judging by crj 700/900)
4. Some other jealous pilot who can only make himself feel better by trying to throw a rainshower on everyone else's hopes
5. Some middle schooler who can't even spell correctly.
6. All of the above
I say there is nothing more frustrating to his type then when people just ignore him. He will continually log on to see what kind of responses he gets, and will be beyond devastated when no one is replying to him or giving him the attention he so desperately craves.
My point : IGNORE HIM
OldManPilot
Senior Member
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2003
- Posts
- 459
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