ACA Its Airbus

[Heavy Set]

So, if UAL sets ACA/Indy Air free, then will all of the ORD-based CRJs return to IAD immediately? Where would you put all of those CRJs? Also, how soon do you think the Delta partnership would be severed (triggering the sale of the DoJets to Delta)?

 

[Andy]

When does the ACA contract expire with UAL in IAD/ORD?

No end date on the contract. It will be terminated when UAL says it's terminated. The timing is entirely up to UAL.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Gee, I guess we should have gone for some of those ïndustry leading pay rates" so we can later declare Ch 11 and furlough 1/3 of our pilots.

If we're lowering the bar, what is Spirit and Frontier doing?

 

[FDJ2]

I understand what you are saying.
In addition, I am not necessarily looking for a stable job, but more of a stable airline. Is that an oxymoron?

Yes.

History has a habit of repeating itself. If you want a stable airline think big, think of an airline that's been around decades, not years. While some may point to a handful of legacy carriers that have gone into chapter 7, the list of start ups that have failed is staggering in comparison. All that being said, there is no sure thing.

 

[Andy]

All that being said, there is no sure thing.

You don't know if you made a bad decision until you age 60 (assuming some scumbags don't get that rule changed), and even then you can't be sure.

 

[crashpad]

Back to the celebration!!! Boy, if nothing else ACA really diverted the Mesa/UAL plan. My happy thought for the day is the uplifted spirits of all the ACA pilots. Congradulations!

 

[jetexas]

From a buddy at ACA....

"We signed a TA about two weeks ago with narrow-body pay-rates. a 12-yr 319/320 Captain will make $131.71 in 2004. For comparison -- Max narrow-body pay at other "Low-Cost Carriers" are as follows:

AWA - $120.42/hr (they just signed a TA to take effect next year for $133.67)
Frontier - $130.68/hr
Jet Blue - $135.05/hr
Spirit - $116.11/hr

The TA calls for incremental increases each year until 12yr Captain pay tops out at $139.77 in 2007."

Doesn't seem too bad to me.

 

[DCitrus9]

For comparison:
12 year(max) AirTran rates for 319/320 are 152.57/172.4
5 year rates are 120.01/136.74
I don't know about the other pay rates, but you must take into effect Jet Blue's time and a half override above 70 hours.

 

[Skank]

Jetblue pay also includes time-and-a half for everything above 70 hours. That pushes our rate up a bit.

 

[j41driver]

Jetblue pay also includes time-and-a half for everything above 70 hours. That pushes our rate up a bit.

Does everyone usually fly more than 70? If so, any idea what the average time above 70 hours is?

 

[Cappy]

What do you mean "first it was jetBlue"? Where have you been for the last 25 years? Did you just start flying? Ever heard of Southwest, People Express, America West? Shall I go on with the list of many since Deregulation in 1978?

It gets really old hearing that jetBlue (et al) are the ones dragging this industry down. If you ask me, it's being brought down by a lot of pilots who think the world owes them a living. It's always someone else's fault, right? If you are working (as opposed to being on furlough) you should count your blessings.

Why don't you ask any one of the 733 pilots at jetBlue (or any of the thousand or so that will be hired) if they think that jetblue is driving this professionion down the toilet. I am positive you will get an answer that is contrary to the few on this forum that think we are "lowering the bar". Without going into detail about our pay scales, suffice it to say that they are just (and I mean just barely) below that of Southwest. As far as our working conditions and other QOL, I'd stack it up against any, repeat any, US air carrier.

So there!
Have a good one

Your Right! I have to agree with jetblue320 on this one. ACA, I mean Independence Air, is a new company in respect to it's platform. Should the company had come to us and offered UAL pay I would have been worried about the future financial prospects from the beginning.

Let me ask this question, and PLEASE don't anyone take this as a slam; had management at UAL been more agressive in the pilot contract, do you believe that there would be as dire a financial situation as now exists there? OK...easy now!

The reason I ask is that it is the responsibility of management to wach the bottom line...always. My point is that had UAL management paid attention to what they were supposed to be doing, going from A to B safely and efficiently, I do not believe that there would be half the furloughs they have inflicted.

Chow

 

[colorado418]

To everyone at Independence Air, Congrats!!! I really do hope that things work out great for you.

Welcome to the world of airlines that are "bringing down the industry"!! You really gotta love it!!!!

 

[General Lee]

And bringing down the wages. I think the Independance Air idea is a good one, but remember that Midway Airlines had the same idea with it's RDU hub. They had a mixture of airplanes (RJS and mainline type aircraft), and a hub city (RDU) that had a lot of promise with the high tech industry. I am sure the Dulles area is a great one ---growing just like RDU. It all comes down to being able to comepte with RJS (the majority of their planes) against Southwest 737s in BWI and their lower fares. Can Independance fly RJs with 50 seats at $59 fares to match Southwest? They say they can with increased frequency. Well, ok---I hope it works. And Colorado 418, watch out for Southwest in PHL. (They added that city to compete with you) Good luck to us all.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[colorado418]

Wages

I don't think that there are over paid pilots at any of the carriers. I do think though, that there may be some under utilized pilots at other carriers.

I heard a number that pertained to United as far as number of hours worked per month for base salary. I heard this from a United pilot. He said that the average hours worked per month was 35 to 40 hours hard time. In todays climate, a carrier just can't support that kind of rig. Can't say that I would not like it, but not at the expense of long term job stability. (if there is such a thing).

Any how, give Indepence a chance. Delta, United, Southwest, American, Eastern, TWA, USAir.... they did not start out with industry leading contracts....
]
Time will tell....

 

[General Lee]

Colorado418,

You know that 30-40 hour number is B.S. Would you say that most of us strive to atain a "line" each month? Sure we do. We all want to be "line holders" so we can know in advance what/where/when we will be flying. I don't know one line at United or Delta or any major that is worth 40 hours. Are there any at Jetblue like that? Sure, some reserves do not fly more than 30-40 hours each month, but they are ready to. And, my friend at United says he flies atleast 90 hours a month now that most line holders there fly 85-90 hours, and the sick call has skyrocketed----making him fly 95 hours. He is very very tired, and now found out that he should be furloughed in mid Feb. Nice. The notion that the "average" major pilot flies only 40 hours a month---on average---comes from the amount of people that airline has in training at the time---often two months long--and no actual line flying for two months--after sims and scheduling IOE etc. Those two months of training equal ZERO hours. Delta and United have a lot more than one type of plane (like Jetblue currently), and many many people in training. That brings down the "average", and you know that. Quit feeding that old wives tale. Those on reserve might not fly as much, but would much rather have a line--which would fly them more.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Sniper@YourFeet]

Does someone need a history lesson?

Any how, give Indepence a chance. Delta, United, Southwest, American, Eastern, TWA, USAir.... they did not start out with industry leading contracts....

Unh-uh, nice try.

American, TWA, Eastern, and United were the entire industry when they started - that's why they were called "the big 4". Eastern had the east coast, United the northern transcontinental route (through Chicago), TWA the central transcontinental route (through St. Louis) and American the southern transcontinental route (through Dallas). Braniff had the Dallas-Chicago route, and Delta the Atlanta-Chicago route.

So, yes, if fact, they did start out with industry leading contracts - they had no competition at the time.

Someone needs to re-read Hard Landing. It's a great book on the histroy of commercial aviation.

 

[colorado418]

Colorado418,

You know that 30-40 hour number is B.S. Would you say that most of us strive to atain a "line" each month? Sure we do. We all want to be "line holders" so we can know in advance what/where/when we will be flying. I don't know one line at United or Delta or any major that is worth 40 hours. Are there any at Jetblue like that? Sure, some reserves do not fly more than 30-40 hours each month, but they are ready to. And, my friend at United says he flies atleast 90 hours a month now that most line holders there fly 85-90 hours, and the sick call has skyrocketed----making him fly 95 hours. He is very very tired, and now found out that he should be furloughed in mid Feb. Nice. The notion that the "average" major pilot flies only 40 hours a month---on average---comes from the amount of people that airline has in training at the time---often two months long--and no actual line flying for two months--after sims and scheduling IOE etc. Those two months of training equal ZERO hours. Delta and United have a lot more than one type of plane (like Jetblue currently), and many many people in training. That brings down the "average", and you know that. Quit feeding that old wives tale. Those on reserve might not fly as much, but would much rather have a line--which would fly them more.

Bye Bye--General Lee

General...
I am telling you the numbers that United pilot gave me. Wives tale or not, that is what I was told.

I am not sure why you take so much offense to what is posted of another carriers numbers. I did not try to post a wives tale about Delta. I don't have any information to share on that subject. I will let you fill us in on the Delta news.

I started the message earlier by saying that Pilots pay at the "majors" is not out of line. I have no problem with a 777 captain making 250-300K/yr. There are others that would argue. I do believe though that to be able to retain / attain those levels, there needs to be some changes. I think that the industry illustrates that point right now. It is not all up to the pilots, but every person involved in the airline. Starting at the top. I think that is where the majority of the blame should be placed.

 

[skirt]

Colorado...

The numbers you heard for United are true, though slowly changing. They were very skewed due to poor management decisions and terrible manpower planning, not pilot's lack of desire to fly.

In early 2002 the overall pilot hours averaged around 40 hours per pilot per month. Now it is close to 50, and the target I understand is 55. This simply is taking the total block hours per year, dividing by 12 then dividing by the number of pilots. It factors in all lost time due to sick leave, training, vacation, reserve usage and most of all poor manpower planning.

As an example, that is totally the cause of poor planning....United parked 100 airplanes overnight in late 2001, due to the effects of 9/11. From a line pilot's perspective, it seemed strange that management would decide to do this and not realize that overnight over 1000 pilots had to be retrained, and there was no room in the training center to take them. Many pilots flew 0 hours for over 6 months waiting for retraining. Then, to make matters worse, the resulting imbalance in certain fleets caused many pilots to fly max hours while others hardly flew. In fact, for 18 months between 200 and 500 pilots were paid 60 hours per month to stay home and NOT fly (I know, I was one of them), rather than be on reserve at 78 hours and only fly 1 day per month. This obviously brings the average down quite a bit.

Meanwhile, other pilots getting bumped down from one plane to the next due to the furloughs. Hundreds of pilots went through 2-3 different schools (at 6 weeks a pop) then got furloughed. One co-pilot I flew with recently had been through 767 school, 320 school, 300 school in the last 10 months and flown only 2 months before getting a furlough notice! How is that for involuntary non-productivity. The training center has been running at full steam since 9/11 with all the retraining going on. None of this resulting non-productivity was because pilots didn't want to fly, rather it was simply the result of a silo driven company, where managers worry only about what happens in their little world, not the big picture.

Meanwhile, the work rules for the narrow body fleets have basically gone to FAR limits, with little compassion in exercising the limits. This means that a 737 pilot lineholder works an average of 92 hours per month (summer), and reserve works every one of his 20 days on call, including having his days off involuntarily moved. With little reserve coverage (because so many pilots are getting furloughed and/or retrained), the reserves wear out after a few months, and are getting sick. This puts more wear on the existing system. Because the system is strained, there is no flexibility and guys don't get the days off with their family that they need.

So you see, the numbers are true, no matter what your position is. Yes, United pilots don't fly a lot and.... yes, they do. I know since for almost two years I flew very, very little (much less than even the low averages listed above, due to the poor manpower planning and "surplus 60 hour lines"), then when I left I was flying over 90 hours a month.

I am glad I'm at an airline now that treats pilots like people, not numbers. Furthermore, the management at JetBlue is much smarter.

Skirt

 

[walleyevision]

FWIW

SWA 12yr CAPT hourly equiv:
Current - $162.24
8/31/2006 - $197.76 (minimum)

 

[AirBoard]

I think the Independance Air idea is a good one, but remember that Midway Airlines had the same idea with it's RDU hub. They had a mixture of airplanes (RJS and mainline type aircraft), and a hub city (RDU) that had a lot of promise with the high tech industry. I am sure the Dulles area is a great one ---growing just like RDU.

Are you comparing the speculative tech boom RDU area of the 90's to the industry of the Virginia/Wash DC area - I think there has been some government activity in DC for quite sometime.....Stop comparing us to Midway.

It all comes down to being able to comepte with RJS (the majority of their planes) against Southwest 737s in BWI and their lower fares. .

I think we ordered some Airbuses too. Besides, there are still smaller markets that have no LCC service. Of course, some will say there's a reason for this - not cost sustainable. Well, I'd like to thinks some beancounters have determined it is, cause if it's not I'll be joing the unemployment ranks very quickly.