ACA Contract Concessions

[RJPilott]

For those that think what one pilot group agrees to does not have an effect on another pilot group, read the following message from tonights ACA MEC hotline:


"This morning, ACA's senior management made a presentation to the ACO MEC requesting concessions. In attendance was the MEC, members of the Negotiating Committee, our contract administer and a representative from ALPA's Economic and Financial Analysis Department. The request for concessions contained both reductions in compensation and work rule changes that amounted to a substantial reduction in our overall compensation package. The company feels that our pilot group is compensated well above "market rates" and wishes to align our compensation package with low cost carriers. The company believes that low cost carriers are: MESA, Chautauqua, AMR Eagle, and Express Jet (dba Continental Express) and compared our pay rates and work rules to these carriers.

After the presentation the MEC went into closed session in a Special MEC Meeting to discuss if the requested concessions will help ACA acquire or retain business. The MEC has instructed the Negotiating Committee and the ALPA Economic Finance &Analysis Department to evaluate and report back to the MEC at the next MEC meeting, scheduled for April 8th and 9th.

One thing needs to be made perfectly clear. The MEC did not agree to concessions, neither did we agree to even discuss concessions at this point; we only agreed to evaluate the information presented by the company. The MEC wants the pilot group to understand that we will deal in facts only, not speculation, not hype, and not conjecture. "

 

[Pilot877]

Oh yeah, I am sooooo overpaid! Whatever........

Gee, with pay concessions I will be able to tighten my belt a couple more notches by only eating one $0.99 side-salad a day.

Pilot877
Junior F/O weight-loss program. (Subway Jared can eat my shorts!)

 

[46Driver]

You - and I - are not overpaid. However, we ARE paid more than the competition - that is where one of our difficulties lies.

 

[BlackCoffee]

What a shame, take no cuts!

 

[Pilot877]

You - and I - are not overpaid. However, we ARE paid more than the competition - that is where one of our difficulties lies.

Thats right, now we are going to be caught up in the Race to the Bottom!

 

[SkywayFO]

What a bunch of greedy basterds they are. "You that number for that truck driving school, Mav. Truck Masters I think it is, I think I might need that." I was eligable for food stamps at my last commuter now I might be again, that light up ahead is the train backing up over me. The funny thing is we are comparing our cost and pay rates to two companies that used to publish in there FOM's that there pilots were not to use food stamps in uniform. What a benchmark to shoot for.

 

[Theflyingtito]

Ask them if they've taken any pay cuts yet. Lead by example.

 

[Palerider957]

Might be time to consider a strike...this whole idea of pay cuts is bullsh1t!!!!!!!!! We're in contract talks as well, I'll walk the picket line before I take a pay cut further into poverty wages...NO FUC.KIN WAY!!!!!!

 

[WhiteCloud]

I was eligable for food stamps at my last commuter now I might be again, that light up ahead is the train backing up over me. The funny thing is we are comparing our cost and pay rates to two companies that used to publish in there FOM's that there pilots were not to use food stamps in uniform. What a benchmark to shoot for.

I'd be laughing about the FOM not using food stamps in uniform if it were not true. Sad story.

 

[ACABlueridge]

Well, I would like for a Mesa pilot to now tell me that signing that POS contract isn't going to affect the rest of the regionals. Give me a break, we are already seeing it thrown in our faces and it has only been a week since they sold their souls. Thanks again.

BTW, management HAS already taken pay cuts.

 

[Bluto]

Kind of pathetic for them to lump Expressjet in there with the others. XJT is currently deep in contract negotiations and operating on a 6 year old contract.

 

[Beantown]

Well, I would like for a Mesa pilot to now tell me that signing that POS contract isn't going to affect the rest of the regionals. Give me a break, we are already seeing it thrown in our faces and it has only been a week since they sold their souls. Thanks again.

BTW, management HAS already taken pay cuts.

The fact is if Mesa had voted no on that contract, they would still be listed in that group and your company would still be asking for concessions. (the old contract was worse then the new one) This has to do with the problems at UAL and the fact that your company is looking for a backup plan. It has NOTHING to do with Mesa's new contract. The balls now in your court. Lets see how you handle it. -Bean

 

[RJPilott]

Thaniks for tossing us the ball Bean. Next time try to toss us a clean one so we dont get sh't all over us while trying to clean the mess Mesa made for us and other carriers in negotiations like CHQ and XJT...


Fact is.. if you guys were united and had some self respect, you would be respected by the rest of us that are trying to earn a decent living. You may be out of a pilot job at Mesa for voting no, but what is a pilot job worth at Mesa with your new contract? I for one would much rather find something new so i can pay my bills while having some self respect left till i can get on with a carrier that at least shows some pride in their work rules and pay rates. And it just may come down to that.. i will quit before i work for Mesa related wages and work rules. Its probably the major reason i chose not to send a resume to Mesa in the first place.. ya think?



How does it feel you guys make less than an FA, a Car salesman, a trash collector etc etc? Those jobs dont even require experience. How much time and money did you invest in your career? What is the result?

 

[eaglefly]

On the bright side the Mesa guys deserved what they got.

Nothing.

 

[Beantown]

How does it feel you guys make less than an FA, a Car salesman, a trash collector etc etc? Those jobs dont even require experience. How much time and money did you invest in your career? What is the result?

It's a riot when other regional pilots ask pilots at Mesa or other of the lower paid regional how they feel making so little when they only make 5-7% or so more. If the pilots at Mesa make less then an FA or Car salesman it is very likely you also do. You make fun of the Mesa pay but the fact is you (and your great contracts) only make a couple thousand more. If you don't want to take a pay cut don't! It is your choice and no one else's. -Bean

ps When/if you guys cave in and give Mgmt the pay cuts, don't even try and blame it on Mesa. You wouldn't listen to the Mesa pilots that tried to use Freedumb as there excuse for there problems. Don't try and use Mesa as yours. It won't fly.

 

[Beantown]

On the bright side the Mesa guys deserved what they got.

Nothing.

And the Eagle guys got what they deserve, a crap contract forever! The fact is Mesa will be well into one or maybe two new contracts before Eagle gets rid of there crap contract. Nice try though. -Bean

 

[RJPilott]

some people just dont get it...lol


i made 36k my first year at ACA (includes per diem)

I made 42K my second....

Both years as an FO...and i still feel thats underpaid for the amount of responsibility and investment.

send me a PM with a fax number.. i'll show you my W4....

Its about work rules, staying informed and pride my friend.... Something which you obviously have no concept of...

I have buddies furloughed from ACA that are already lining up 36k/yr jobs flying Hawkers with less time than you... The jobs are out there. Get off your lazy a$$ no self-respect opinion and go look..

A polyester suit and a CRT panel doesnt mean sh't to me unless i can have a decent lifestyle. I'll fly a 172 on weekends before i break sweat for Mesa or Mesa related work rules and wages. I love flying, but not that much to be a whore.

I'd also like to add...

Before anyone thinks that LCC such as SWA and jB are similiar to the Mesa's of the industry, i had a jB Capt JS with us last week. He showed me his W4 at 185K. He was in his second year at jB and a Capt. That did not include his bonuses. I think if i were to be with a LCC, i can live off 185k plus bonuses. So, its kinda moot to compare mainline LCC to the whores that will eat ramen noodles to fly a jet.

Oh, and he was a Eagle FO when he got hired by jB.. maybe low 30's in age...

 

[Concierj]

Yes, its true. I made 28k my first year at ACA. I did pick up some open time but nothing unusual. Maybe 5 trips total throughout the year. I estimated 4k for the year in per diem but i think its more like 5.5k. I was based out of LGA my first year. LGA was a money maker back then, and the lines were ALOT better. I rarely see a line over 80 hours out of LGA nowadays.

monthly guarantee at ACA is 75 hours. Our contract says lines will be built as close to 89 hours as possible. Most lines in IAD and ORD average in the high 80's while LGA lines havent come close to 89 hours in a long time (usually in the low 70's). CVG and BOS are somewhere in between. I made 32K my first year as an FO (includes per diem) at ACA while hardly picking up any open time. Your results may vary.

made 36k my first year at ACA (includes per diem)


Well, which is it? Keeps going up. 28K, 32K, 36K? Or have you lost the concept of what you actually made? Over 70% of pilots at ACA PFT'd . Lots of pride there too....

Some other people just don't get it....

LOL

 

[AWACoff]

Since when was Mesa making only 5% to 7% less than $130+ per hour for senior captains? If that's the case, SIGN ME UP!!!
Even Great Lakes has a better contract than Mesa...and they have the Teamsters for pete's sake!

 

[Beantown]

some people just dont get it...lol


i made 36k my first year at ACA (includes per diem)

I wish I had a fax but I don't. Let me get this right. First year pay is $21.53 (or so). If you flew the full 1000 hrs that would be $21,530. Lets say you were bringing home $500 a month in per diem (that would be over 300 hrs out of base a month which is a lot for an average) that's $6,000 more for a total of $27,530. I assume you have block or better and premium pay. We had both at CCair (I don't work for Mesa you ass) and they might be worth a couple thousand if you work the system, that makes $29,530. What am I missing? I have given you the max hours allowed (very very unlikely considering you had to be on reserve much of the time), tons of time away from base and a little extra for working the system. Since I don't have a fax why don't you share how you reached this magic number in year one? -Bean

 

[RJPilott]

made 36k my first year at ACA (includes per diem)


Well, which is it? Keeps going up. 28K, 32K, 36K? Or have you lost the concept of what you actually made? Over 70% of pilots at ACA PFT'd . Lots of pride there too....

Some other people just don't get it....

LOL

Wow... you really dug for that post huh? I think i posted that over a year ago.... i dont know whether to be flattered that you dug for it... or feel sorry for you that you have that much time on your hands....

28 plus 5.5 is 33.5. After doing my taxes and figuring out actual per diem it was 36.3K... but still.. how many Mesa pilots will make even close to 28k thier first year without per diem? If you dont know.. W4 doesnt show per diem.... my first yr W4 shows 28.8 plus 1.50 and raises of per diem. Avg a 17 day work month and you come up with 7,344...that works out to be 36,144 off the top of my head...


ACA was roughly 500 pilots deep when PFT was abolished. We now have 1600 pilots on property after the 87 furloughed. You may want to double check your figures...

 

[RJPilott]

I Since I don't have a fax why don't you share how you reached this magic number in year one? -Bean

I think the other guy already dug deep into past posts to explain. However, try doing that with 35.00 a year for the second year.. and see what you come up with.... Happy Hunting....

oh.. and i think i actually flew less than 800 block my first year... average 11-13 days off per month....


get a fax.. i have no problem faxing it out to you

 

[Beantown]

Wow... you really dug for that post huh? I think i posted that over a year ago.... i dont know whether to be flattered that you dug for it... or feel sorry for you that you have that much time on your hands....

28 plus 5.5 is 33.5. After doing my taxes and figuring out actual per diem it was 36.3K... but still.. how many Mesa pilots will make even close to 28k thier first year without per diem? If you dont know.. W4 doesnt show per diem....

ACA was roughly 500 pilots deep when PFT was abolished. We now have 1600 pilots on property after the 87 furloughed. You may want to double check your figures...

So you are saying that you made $8,300 your first year in Per Diem? That is an average of 432 hrs (based on 1.60 an hr which is a guess) away from base EVERY month from your first day on line. What a bunch of B.S. You are so full of sh$t.

For comparison, my first year at CCAir I made just over $4000 in per diem (at $1.45) and had a line from my second month

Instead of faxing it to me why don't you spend a couple minutes here and break it down for all of us. Looking forward to it. -Bean

 

[RJPilott]

i edited my post.. .do the math Einstein...


you're not too bright are you Bean....


Must be the reason you are still furloughed and defending Mesa pilots to get your CCAir job back...lol


1.50 x 24=36 per day

17 x 36 = 612 per month (based on 13 off per month which i was actually less that 13 for my first year)

612 x 12 (months in a year) = 7344....

again.. this is off the top of my head. I have no desire to pull out tons of paperwork. Unless you really want me to fax it..... some things need to remain private...

Now.... the real question is... do you think i was overpaid?

 

[MetroSheriff]

I'm with Bean on this one and have to throw the BS flag. $36,300 the first year at ACA???

Not unless you count in profit from slingin crack on a street corner on the overnights.


Even a long 4 day is usually in the neighborhood of 72 hours TAFB. Assuming you do 5 full 4 days a month (5 x 72) thats only 360 per month. Which in turn is only 4320 for a year. Multiply that times $1.50 and it's still only $6480.00 per diem. And you can't do that with 13 days off a month.

Needless to say, if you work that much, you have NO quality of life.

I really could care less how much you made. But 36+ at any regional just don't jive.

All that being said, I agree with you RJ. You were not over paid. Even at your imaginary first year $36,300.

 

[cocknbull]

Bean,

I'll let RJPilot defend himself, however there were many pilots at ACA that made 36,000 there first year. The reason was that many J31 FO's reached upgrade time in less then a year. My former flight instructor got hired their in May of 2000 and could have upgraded in six months. However since he was on the J31 they gave him captain pay to stay in the right seat untill the plane was retired. He made around 36 or 37. I talked to another one of my instructors who was hired July of 2001 into the J41. He made about 27K his first year. He flew about 690 hours.

 

[RJPilott]

I'm with Bean on this one and have to throw the BS flag. $36,300 the first year at ACA???

Not unless you count in profit from slingin crack on a street corner on the overnights.

actually.. now that you mention it Metro.. i forgot to count 250-450 per quarter in Share the Success Checks we get (thats after taxes,,, our last Share The Success was 720 for the quarter before taxes)... Thanks for reminding me...

 

[RJPilott]

Bean,

I'll let RJPilot defend himself, however there were many pilots at ACA that made 36,000 there first year. The reason was that many J31 FO's reached upgrade time in less then a year. My former flight instructor got hired their in May of 2000 and could have upgraded in six months. However since he was on the J31 they gave him captain pay to stay in the right seat untill the plane was retired. He made around 36 or 37. I talked to another one of my instructors who was hired July of 2001 into the J41. He made about 27K his first year. He flew about 690 hours.

Thanks Bulll,

if we count upgrades.. and LGA... there were pilots making close to 100k their 3rd year at ACA...

Want me to include the instructor salaries now?


and the fact still remains we get paid for cancellations... and we get paid a semi-respectable wage with respectable per diem. So,,, should we now take concessions?

 

[MetroSheriff]

actually.. now that you mention it Metro.. i forgot to count 250-450 per quarter in Share the Success Checks we get (thats after taxes,,, our last Share The Success was 720 for the quarter before taxes)... Thanks for reminding me...

I am not saying that it couldn't be done. I don't know your contract well enough to say. My point was that it could not be done with any quality of life. I regularly bid low block lines because at FO payrates, my time off with the family is more important than the measly few bucks I could make by working my ass off. At Captain rates it is a different story. And as far as instructors...don't get me started. LOL

 

[RJPilott]

It has been done.. many times over.

Now does someone care to put the 2003 Mesa contract under the microscope? With thier 1.15 per diem and their no pay for cancellations? and 8-10 days off per month?


Be sure to compare their +70 seat FO's to our 50 seat FO's and our contract provisions for per diem, days off, cancellation pay. Heck, may as well go further to include our J41 FO's as a comparison to their 90 seat FO's since most of our J41 FO's make 35+/hr their second year.