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AC 90-100 Compiance (GNS-XLS)

501261

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I just got this off the NBAA board, looks like a lot of airplanes became /W today!

To all GNS-XLS users:

I received this communication today from Honeywell. This is a reversal of what we were told last month.

WRT: Further communications concerning AC 90-100 compliance
 

Headwind

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I got this also and it's different from what I got a week ago. With GNS-XLS's are you still /Q, but can't accept RNAV SIDS & STARS? Thats the way it looks. How do others feel about this?

HEADWIND
 

Capthuff

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So what is the cost to pull out the GNS and install a UNS?
Its gotta be around 60K at least.
 

O-Line

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What's he talking about "inability to load complete procedure", whenever I load a SID or STAR the waypoints and altitudes are loaded in. This affects a lot of airplanes.
 

SabreFlyR

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O-Line said:
What's he talking about "inability to load complete procedure", whenever I load a SID or STAR the waypoints and altitudes are loaded in. This affects a lot of airplanes.

You cannot do a Type A or B sid/star with GNSxls or most of the KLN series gps's either. If you load the Jaike One arrival for TEB, there are three fixes on the chaterted arrival that do not come up in the star data base. They are not part of the routing but stand alone out there on there own, I pressume for atc use. They are in the nav data base of the GNSxls but AC 90-100 says you cannot manually enter the fixes on the star. Since you cannot manually enter these fixes and they don't pop up in the star data base you cannot use your GNS or KLN types for this or these types of arrivals thanks to the FAA.
 

SabreFlyR

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Headwind said:
I got this also and it's different from what I got a week ago. With GNS-XLS's are you still /Q, but can't accept RNAV SIDS & STARS? Thats the way it looks. How do others feel about this?

HEADWIND

I agree with your statement except for the Q part. This has been debated by several on the NBAA site. The way I understand it Q is for an airframe/avionics combo that is RNP compliant. This is different from having an LOA saying you can operate in RNP 5- 10 airspace. In the case of Q, it is the actual aircraft that is certified to operate in RNP airspace as stated in the AFM and there are only a few models that have this approval, Gulfstream and I think Boeing were the ones mentioned. Of course by looking at Flight Tracker I would say 90% of the of the people still file Q.

ps. someone on the NBAA site is trying to get to the bottom of this with FAA.
 

O-Line

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???

SabreFlyR said:
You cannot do a Type A or B sid/star with GNSxls or most of the KLN series gps's either. If you load the Jaike One arrival for TEB, there are three fixes on the chaterted arrival that do not come up in the star data base. They are not part of the routing but stand alone out there on there own, I pressume for atc use. They are in the nav data base of the GNSxls but AC 90-100 says you cannot manually enter the fixes on the star. Since you cannot manually enter these fixes and they don't pop up in the star data base you cannot use your GNS or KLN types for this or these types of arrivals thanks to the FAA.
I've flown lots of RNAV SIDS and STARS with the GNS-XLS, KEPEC/BOACH in LAS comes to mind, and I've never had a problem or had to load a fix/altitude. What am I missing here?
 

SabreFlyR

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O-Line said:
I've flown lots of RNAV SIDS and STARS with the GNS-XLS, KEPEC/BOACH in LAS comes to mind, and I've never had a problem or had to load a fix/altitude. What am I missing here?

Same here, but apparently this guy thinks differently. The AC says you cannot manually load a fix on a Type A or B sid/star, so even with it being in the navigation data base but not in the sid/star data base you cannot manually load that fix onto a sid or star per AC90-100.
It makes absolutely no sense at all that because the fix isn't stored as part of the sid/star it is now magically deemed unusable by the FAA.


Due to these systems inability to load complete procedure SIDS/STARS, it has been determined by Lou Volchansky with the FAA that with regards to AC 90-100, the GNS-XLS, GNS-XL, CDU-XLS, KLN-89B, KLN-90B, KLN-900, and KLN-94 are:
ONLY approved for RNAV Q-routes and Obstacle Departure Procedures, NOT RNAV Type A and Type B SID/STAR procedures.”
For further information please refer to the FAA’s compliance website at:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/afs/afs400/afs410/policy_guidance/media/AC90_100compliance.pdf
 

2000flyer

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Sabre is correct, you CANNOT manually enter fixes. Also, as I understand it, you are not an "Q". Research, questions and debates lead us to file "L" and now that might be in question.

The lead on the Las Vegas RNAV group for their ATC is working with Honeywell trying to find an answer. Hopefully we'll hear something soon.
 

Dangerkitty

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Hey guys,

Can you tell me where on the NBAA website you guys are going to get this info?
Is it a message board like flightinfo.com? I have access to the NBAA website but rarely go there.

Any info would be appreciated. I need more info about AC 90-100

Thanks,

DK
 

501261

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So basically what Mr. Lou Volchansky of the FAA is saying is because TEB has some screwy STAR that has waypoints, that aren't really waypoints all, GNS's are now pretty useless.

I'll go out the airport tomorrow and findout myself, but just out of curiousity what does a UNS show/do with RAIMY,CRRIS, SISSI on the JAIKE ONE STAR, that the GNS isn't.
 

501261

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2000flyer said:
Sabre is correct, you CANNOT manually enter fixes. Also, as I understand it, you are not an "Q". Research, questions and debates lead us to file "L" and now that might be in question.
I'll agree that most of us are /L these days. But this revised AC basically turns airplanes with GNS into /A.

I completely agree you can not manually enter fixes on a STAR and be legal, but this appears to be 1 STAR with some odd ball fixes. Or is this a more serious problem with the GNS, whereas it has the the possibility of not shooting RNAV STARS and Approaches the right way?
 

Lead Sled

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> enuf
2000flyer said:
Sabre is correct, you CANNOT manually enter fixes. Also, as I understand it, you are not an "Q". Research, questions and debates lead us to file "L" and now that might be in question.

The lead on the Las Vegas RNAV group for their ATC is working with Honeywell trying to find an answer. Hopefully we'll hear something soon.
I sure hope so. We've been using "/L" but now I have no idea what we are. We're at FlightSafety this week, I'll ask around to see what, if any, guidance they can offer.

'Sled
 

2000flyer

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501261 said:
I'll agree that most of us are /L these days. But this revised AC basically turns airplanes with GNS into /A.

I completely agree you can not manually enter fixes on a STAR and be legal, but this appears to be 1 STAR with some odd ball fixes. Or is this a more serious problem with the GNS, whereas it has the the possibility of not shooting RNAV STARS and Approaches the right way?

Hey bud, good to see ya! I don't think TEB is the only problem. LAS has a myriad of RNAV SID/STARs that, from what I'm seeing, will be affected also.

Dangerkitty, go to www.nbaa.org and check out the "Airmail" section. This particular thread is under the AvMgr section.

2000Flyer
 

Headwind

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SabreFlyR, I'm sure you have a better understanding about this than myself. I have a couple of questions. Our Sabre 65 has dual GNXxls and RVSM.

1. If not /Q what /W?

2. If it's OK to accept SID's or STAR's that are for terrain or noise and certain
R-Nav SID's or STAR's, but not class A or B, how do know which to accept
using Jepps? Should I load the SID and compare the FMS to the chart to
verify that all waypoints were loaded (by the FMS) before accepting?

3. Is this the fault of the GNS-XLS or the monthly updates?I realize that
Honeywell's customer support is at an all time low, but could they not
correct this on their next monthly update? The box has SID's &
STAR's but only a few waypoints are missing on only a few procedures.

Thanks in advance for your answers and anyone who can help me understand these fast changing rules.

HEADWIND
 

Dangerkitty

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2000flyer said:
Hey bud, good to see ya! I don't think TEB is the only problem. LAS has a myriad of RNAV SID/STARs that, from what I'm seeing, will be affected also.

Dangerkitty, go to www.nbaa.org and check out the "Airmail" section. This particular thread is under the AvMgr section.

2000Flyer

Thanks 2000,

Is it the thing where you get about 1000 emails a day in your e-mail box? Or is it a message board set up like this?

Thanks in advance!!

DK
 

SabreFlyR

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Headwind said:
SabreFlyR, I'm sure you have a better understanding about this than myself. I have a couple of questions. Our Sabre 65 has dual GNXxls and RVSM.

1. If not /Q what /W?

2. If it's OK to accept SID's or STAR's that are for terrain or noise and certain
R-Nav SID's or STAR's, but not class A or B, how do know which to accept
using Jepps? Should I load the SID and compare the FMS to the chart to
verify that all waypoints were loaded (by the FMS) before accepting?

3. Is this the fault of the GNS-XLS or the monthly updates?I realize that
Honeywell's customer support is at an all time low, but could they not
correct this on their next monthly update? The box has SID's &
STAR's but only a few waypoints are missing on only a few procedures.

Thanks in advance for your answers and anyone who can help me understand these fast changing rules.

HEADWIND

Here's a post on the subject from someone on the NBAA site who has much more experience in this area than I. Up until now you should be filing as a /L, now heck I don't even know. I would assume that if you are not going to an airport that is using a Type A or B sid/star you would be a /L, otherwise I guess it would be /w that's the one I see that fits now.

Re: the FAA's disallowment of the GNS-XLS to fly RNAV SIDs and STARs

All,

I'm just off the phone with Honeywell.


Looks like Honeywell engineers and the FAA are in disagreement on what the language of AC90-100 requires an RNAV box to do.

Honeywell sees the requirement for accuracy, FAA wants certain leg types encoded with no pilot intervention.

Example: VA (Heading to Altitude) or CF (Course to Fix) or CA (Course to Altitude) can be pilot flown or pilot manipulated. The FAA does not want that.

Right now the GNS-XLS operating system does not support these leg terminators. They are looking at an operating system software upgrade to do this.

It would be useful for Honeywell to know the level of customer demand for such an upgrade so the 2500 or so units out there are not excluded from the airspace modernization plan.

Still to be answered (by the FAA): How do GNS-XLS operators file flight plans today? Since a the ATC host computer will assign RNAV SIDs and STARs to any RNAV-suffix aircraft, should these so equipped aircraft file as VOR/DME/(RVSM) aircraft only?
 

SabreFlyR

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Dangerkitty said:
Thanks 2000,

Is it the thing where you get about 1000 emails a day in your e-mail box? Or is it a message board set up like this?

Thanks in advance!!

DK

Naw it's usually only 500 or so:D Some days it can get to be a bit much other days there will hardly be any activity, I just look at the subject lines and delete the ones with topics that don't interest me.
 

pilotmiketx

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If you are RVSM + RNAV but without the appropriate RNP documentation from your airframe/avionics manufacturer (ie Gulfstream, Boeing as previously noted), then the correct suffix is "L".

There was some additional clarification recently published by the FAA that basically said you can still fly the RNP SIDs/STARs if you're "L" and in radar contact. You'll notice that the notes on the plates have changed to indicate this. If I can dig up the letter, I'll publish it or a link to it here.

I'm not sure what the "off-route" fixes have to do with this mess. I can't see how you could be assigned one without pilot intervention. When you are assigned one of those fixes (on the Jaike arrival, for instance), you are being taken off the arrival and then you will rejoin the arrival at a subsequent fix.

If anyone else has a different take, I'm all ears (or is it eyes?)
 

501261

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SabreFlyR said:
Re: the FAA's disallowment of the GNS-XLS to fly RNAV SIDs and STARs

All,

I'm just off the phone with Honeywell.


Looks like Honeywell engineers and the FAA are in disagreement on what the language of AC90-100 requires an RNAV box to do.

Honeywell sees the requirement for accuracy, FAA wants certain leg types encoded with no pilot intervention.

Example: VA (Heading to Altitude) or CF (Course to Fix) or CA (Course to Altitude) can be pilot flown or pilot manipulated. The FAA does not want that.

Right now the GNS-XLS operating system does not support these leg terminators. They are looking at an operating system software upgrade to do this.

It would be useful for Honeywell to know the level of customer demand for such an upgrade so the 2500 or so units out there are not excluded from the airspace modernization plan.

Still to be answered (by the FAA): How do GNS-XLS operators file flight plans today? Since a the ATC host computer will assign RNAV SIDs and STARs to any RNAV-suffix aircraft, should these so equipped aircraft file as VOR/DME/(RVSM) aircraft only?
Good old Keith G., he really needs to get an award for all the work he does!

Now that explantion finally makes sense, that the FAA didn't like that GNS's can't fly headings automatically to an altitude (he called it VA) and such. That's much more plausible than that JAIKE stuff.
 
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