AC 90-100 Compiance (GNS-XLS)

[2000flyer]

Thanks 2000,

Is it the thing where you get about 1000 emails a day in your e-mail box? Or is it a message board set up like this?

Thanks in advance!!

DK

Yep, you get them by email once subscribed. It varies by debate, obviously. I've come home to only 5-6 emails, to several hundred (depends on the length of the trip )

 

[Dangerkitty]

Another question. We are P-RNAV approved. Does that mean we satisfy AC-90-100?

 

[501261]

Another question. We are P-RNAV approved. Does that mean we satisfy AC-90-100?

This is just my opinion, and I could be completely wrong, but isn't your P-RNAV approval is based on your GNS being approved, not the other way around. And since GNS's no longer "meet" AC 90 100 criteria due to "path terminators", you might have issues. Think of it this way if your GNS went inop would you still be P-RNAV approved?

 

[Dangerkitty]

This is just my opinion, and I could be completely wrong, but isn't your P-RNAV approval is based on your GNS being approved, not the other way around. And since GNS's no longer "meet" AC 90 100 criteria due to "path terminators", you might have issues. Think of it this way if your GNS went inop would you still be P-RNAV approved?

Well I guess I should have clarified my statement. In the Falcon 50EX we use the Collins 6100. We have been approved by the feds for P-RNAV so I am guessing that automatically makes us approved under AC 90-100? Am I correct?

 

[501261]

You're fine

Well I guess I should have clarified my statement. In the Falcon 50EX we use the Collins 6100. We have been approved by the feds for P-RNAV so I am guessing that automatically makes us approved under AC 90-100? Am I correct?

According to AC 90 100 the Collins 6100 is ok.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/avs/offices/afs/afs400/afs410/policy_guidance/media/AC90_100compliance.pdf

This change only affects the 2500 or so Global GNS-XLS users out there .

 

[2000flyer]

Well I guess I should have clarified my statement. In the Falcon 50EX we use the Collins 6100. We have been approved by the feds for P-RNAV so I am guessing that automatically makes us approved under AC 90-100? Am I correct?

Speaking of P-RNAV...

Have you completed the training yet? I just got Falcon's FSA regarding P-RNAV this morning. The only airport requiring it is Schipol in the Netherlands and that is for night operations and transitioning their airspace.

2000Flyer

 

[Dangerkitty]

Speaking of P-RNAV...

Have you completed the training yet? I just got Falcon's FSA regarding P-RNAV this morning. The only airport requiring it is Schipol in the Netherlands and that is for night operations and transitioning their airspace.

2000Flyer

We did all the grunt work and were BLOWN away that out FSDO gave us the authorization only a week or so later.

We were/are worried that even though it really doesn't take effect until 2010, we are guessing that many European airports and countries might give you a hard time if you dont already have the authorization in the coming years. Since it was the Europeans idea they might get bent around the axel about it.

 

[puddlejumper]

If you are RVSM + RNAV but without the appropriate RNP documentation from your airframe/avionics manufacturer (ie Gulfstream, Boeing as previously noted), then the correct suffix is "L".

There was some additional clarification recently published by the FAA that basically said you can still fly the RNP SIDs/STARs if you're "L" and in radar contact. You'll notice that the notes on the plates have changed to indicate this. If I can dig up the letter, I'll publish it or a link to it here.

I'm not sure what the "off-route" fixes have to do with this mess. I can't see how you could be assigned one without pilot intervention. When you are assigned one of those fixes (on the Jaike arrival, for instance), you are being taken off the arrival and then you will rejoin the arrival at a subsequent fix.

If anyone else has a different take, I'm all ears (or is it eyes?)

This is from an earlier RNP discussion on these forums. http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=61796

This is from the July 31, 2005 AFS-410 document revising the Aircraft Equipment Suffix Table. LINK /W aircraft are still expected to have limited RNAV capability, just not the Advanced RNAV to comply with Type A or B Terminal RNAV procedures.

c. Aircraft with RNAV Capability. For flight in RVSM airspace, aircraft with RNAV and RVSM capability, but not Advanced RNAV capability, will file “/W”. Filing “/W” will not preclude such aircraft from filing and flying direct routes in enroute airspace.

With the KLN-90A, we file /W and routinely get cleared direct as if we were GPS equipped, which we are, but just for enroute ops. The TSO-C129 I think says something about our unit being class A2 (from the AIM), which is technically approved for enroute and terminal ops, however, the CDI sensitivity is locked on 5nm, so that is clearly not right.

 

[SabreFlyR]

This is from an earlier RNP discussion on these forums. http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=61796

This is from the July 31, 2005 AFS-410 document revising the Aircraft Equipment Suffix Table. LINK /W aircraft are still expected to have limited RNAV capability, just not the Advanced RNAV to comply with Type A or B Terminal RNAV procedures.

c. Aircraft with RNAV Capability. For flight in RVSM airspace, aircraft with RNAV and RVSM capability, but not Advanced RNAV capability, will file “/W”. Filing “/W” will not preclude such aircraft from filing and flying direct routes in enroute airspace.

With the KLN-90A, we file /W and routinely get cleared direct as if we were GPS equipped, which we are, but just for enroute ops. The TSO-C129 I think says something about our unit being class A2 (from the AIM), which is technically approved for enroute and terminal ops, however, the CDI sensitivity is locked on 5nm, so that is clearly not right.

The problem with filing as a /W is these units, GNSxls, KLN900, KLN90B etc. meet the deffinition of advanced RNAV. The only operation they are now not approved to do is RNAV type A or B sid/stars. You can still do enroute, Q & T routes, terminal operations - non RNAV sid/stars and nonprecision approaches. I do not think there is an answer from the FAA as to code we file now.

 

[GravityHater]

I'd been emailing a guy from Honeywell about the GNS-xLS 3 months ago. We had been doing a STAR that had one leg which stated, I think, "RNP-2 required between Xxxxx and Yyyyy".
I searched and could not find anything about the RNP values provided by the unit so I called and the rep had to talk to tech in order to learn that it is not an RNP navigator at all. And as such we were not legal to accept such a STAR. Kind of amazing that the unit will provide navigation over this route showing the legs and waypoints and tracking within 0.1nm the entire time but not be any more legal than a handheld GPS. I think I even posted here about it.
Anyway I learned of its [purported] limits and also that we are supposed to file /L not /Q or /W (we are RVSM capable).

I think this is a big mess that could easily have been predicted and was instead left for owners to sort out after the fact. I predict an expensive fix involving more than just software.

 

[Flying Illini]

We file /L for all of our aircraft equipped with the GNS-XLS. GravityHater, you are probably right about the fix being expensive...unfortunately....hopefully with 2500 users out there Honeywell may try to make things right with minimal hassle (yeah right!).

 

[SabreFlyR]

I think this is a big mess that could easily have been predicted and was instead left for owners to sort out after the fact. I predict an expensive fix involving more than just software.

I think you're right and just how long will take them to decide how to fix it is going to be a problem. I am looking into the Universal now, he!! might even consider a Garmin, they seem to have their act together.

 

[Capthuff]

After talking to Cessna, $97,000 to swap a GNS-XLS with a UNS-1ESP.
Of course, that would be a brand new box. A used one might be available.

 

[Capthuff]

Now, I learn better by the "show and discuss" method better then the "read and understand" method. I am rereading the AC and I found this:

(4) Whenever possible, RNAV routes​

[FONT=Times New Roman PSMT,Times New Roman PSMT]should be extracted from the database in their entirety, rather than loading RNAV route waypoints from the database into the flight plan individually. Selecting and inserting individual, named fixes is permitted, provided all fixes along the published route to be flown are inserted. [/FONT]

Later is says:
​

[FONT=Times New Roman PSMT,Times New Roman PSMT]

(7) Manual entry (latitude/longitude, place/bearing) of published procedure waypoints into the aircraft system is not permitted.​

​

Additionally, pilots must not change any RNAV SID or STAR database waypoint type from a fly-by to a fly-over or vice versa.
​

[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman PSMT,Times New Roman PSMT]It was on page 11.[/FONT]

Does this mean you can type in the name of the fix but not Radial/Bearing/DME or LAT/LONG to identify a fix?
[FONT=Times New Roman PSMT,Times New Roman PSMT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman PSMT,Times New Roman PSMT]What part of the GNS boxes fail the requirements for the AC?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman PSMT,Times New Roman PSMT]Is it:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman PSMT,Times New Roman PSMT]1) the RNP required for type A & type B SID/STAR or;[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman PSMT,Times New Roman PSMT]2) the proper loading of the waypoints in the SID/STAR? [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman PSMT,Times New Roman PSMT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman PSMT,Times New Roman PSMT]Or both? [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman PSMT,Times New Roman PSMT]My friend flies a Citation 650 with P-RNAV approval but he has the GNS-XLS box, so what does that mean?​

[/FONT]

 

[GravityHater]

Whenever we mess with a loaded STAR/SID by removing or adding a waypoint, as described in the manual, the entire STAR/SID drops out completely and you have to start all over. I think its a safety issue, they don't want someone messing with the route. I can't imagine anyone actually loading the entire sid/star waypoint by waypoint, is there ever a reason to use an axe to chop wood when a chainsaw is right there?

 

[SabreFlyR]

Now,

[FONT=Times New Roman PSMT,Times New Roman PSMT]What part of the GNS boxes fail the requirements for the AC?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman PSMT,Times New Roman PSMT]Is it:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman PSMT,Times New Roman PSMT]1) the RNP required for type A & type B SID/STAR or;[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman PSMT,Times New Roman PSMT]2) the proper loading of the waypoints in the SID/STAR? [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman PSMT,Times New Roman PSMT]Or both? [/FONT]

​

[FONT=Times New Roman PSMT,Times New Roman PSMT]
[/FONT]

The way I now understand it, It has to do with the path terminators. I am not sure what it is exactly that the GNS doesn't do that other boxes are able to. Hopefully someone on here or elsewhere will know.

 

[59PA]

Has anyone gotten an answer for the proper equipment suffix?

 

[Lead Sled]

Has anyone gotten an answer for the proper equipment suffix?

You're /L. Just don't be accepting any of those fancy DPs or STARs.

'Sled

 

[jumppilot03]

Bringing back an old thread on the XLS. I may find myself with one soon, and am curious as if they are now approved to do the RNAV SID and STARS? I can't find if an update was ever made. If not, those are pretty much boat anchors.

 

[GravityHater]

no change. boat anchors.
well, they are ok still if you just don't accept rnav sids/stars