ABX, DHL and Astar family tree

[nitefr8dog]

It is just from casual observation!

 

[erichartmann]

And if J.H. had been willing to work with DHL this whole UPS deal would not have taken place instead of screwing them over and over. You have no idea what has taken place over the years.

I'm going to have to throw the BS flag on that one. DHL is not and never has been in the overnight express business as it exists here in the US even when they thought they were. They don't have a clue how it works and are unwilling to learn. Further, they were unwilling to "make it work" while paying for making the needed changes. I recently saw fresh evidence of this less than a week ago.

Airborne sold out to DHL because Carl Donoway had screwed the pooch with the 767's by not putting cargo doors in them. All Carl wanted was to make a pile and move on. He did so in multiple senses. JH was, to mix metap*************************, left holding the bag. He is not a very likeable person and most blame him as a result. There are many factors at work in this monumental cock up, but the biggest problem is DHL. We would be exactly where we are today or worse, depending on your POV, regardless of what JH and ABX did or did not do. Or worse, because some of us may survive this whole mess with a job as thing now stand.

 

[nitefr8dog]

I'm going to have to throw the BS flag on that one. DHL is not and never has been in the overnight express business as it exists here in the US even when they thought they were. They don't have a clue how it works and are unwilling to learn. Further, they were unwilling to "make it work" while paying for making the needed changes. I recently saw fresh evidence of this less than a week ago.

Airborne sold out to DHL because Carl Donoway had screwed the pooch with the 767's by not putting cargo doors in them. All Carl wanted was to make a pile and move on. He did so in multiple senses. JH was, to mix metap*************************, left holding the bag. He is not a very likeable person and most blame him as a result. There are many factors at work in this monumental cock up, but the biggest problem is DHL. We would be exactly where we are today or worse, depending on your POV, regardless of what JH and ABX did or did not do. Or worse, because some of us may survive this whole mess with a job as thing now stand.

Ok. you are right.

 

[erichartmann]

Dog,

Everyone has heard the rumors over the years. Can you elaborate on it?

Hvy, what lb lead are you using on that hook?

 

[727Niteflyer]

When DHL bought Airborne what was the attitude amongst the working groups. Did everyone see it as a positive? just curious.

 

[hvydriver]

Hvy, what lb lead are you using on that hook?

No hook eric. Just curious. It's all academic at this point anyway. DR had said JH was "double dipping" DHL at the MIA base in a hotline awhile back. I thought maybe that was what he was referring to.

 

[mxer]

When DHL bought Airborne what was the attitude amongst the working groups. Did everyone see it as a positive? just curious.

I think most thought of it as a positive. ABX had some "know how", but was unwilling to take chances in order to grow. DHL had deep pockets and an international presence. Most hoped for aggresive growth. We did hope DHL could show the same ability to adapt to the US way of business the same as they had done throughout the rest of the world.

 

[erichartmann]

When DHL bought Airborne what was the attitude amongst the working groups. Did everyone see it as a positive? just curious.

At the very least most of the pilots were cautiously optimistic. The disillusionment set in over varying lengths of time. Even after most realized that DHL hadn't a clue we kept doing the best we could and hoped they would wake up. There's a part of me that still hopes to this day, but I'm not counting on it, and haven't been for some time. I've seen to many legacy ground DHL folks who simply don't want to change.

 

[erichartmann]

No hook eric. Just curious. It's all academic at this point anyway. DR had said JH was "double dipping" DHL at the MIA base in a hotline awhile back. I thought maybe that was what he was referring to.

That is a matter of opinion, or perhaps contract talks rhetoric. The union felt MIA was understaffed and objected to a number of managment's staffing practices. Management, for example, used ILN based reserves to cover MIA trips if they weren't needed to cover DHL. The union, which wanted more pilots on the list and more CA seats felt this practice should not be allowed. I don't recall if it went to grievance or not, but if it did the union lost. Also, under the terms of the ACMI DHL bore the infastructure costs so long as the charter business did not exceed 10% of gross. This included such things as maintenance. ABX was very careful not to exceed the 10% limit because they didn't want to lose money while building the business. Management wanted to grow the DHL business as much as possible to provide increase the "10%" as much as possible, and made no bones about it. I would guess whether or not you see that as double dipping depends on your POV.

 

[hvydriver]

That is a matter of opinion, or perhaps contract talks rhetoric. The union felt MIA was understaffed and objected to a number of managment's staffing practices. Management, for example, used ILN based reserves to cover MIA trips if they weren't needed to cover DHL. The union, which wanted more pilots on the list and more CA seats felt this practice should not be allowed. I don't recall if it went to grievance or not, but if it did the union lost. Also, under the terms of the ACMI DHL bore the infastructure costs so long as the charter business did not exceed 10% of gross. This included such things as maintenance. ABX was very careful not to exceed the 10% limit because they didn't want to lose money while building the business. Management wanted to grow the DHL business as much as possible to provide increase the "10%" as much as possible, and made no bones about it. I would guess whether or not you see that as double dipping depends on your POV.

Ah, that makes sense Eric.

 

[abxaviator]

We have seen no changes at cappy. Buisness as normal, we are hiring and even growing.

ABX was hiring this time last year.

 

[Box-Hauler]

yes they were hiring; for our ever expanding Asia operations. We were told there would be 10 to 20 planes flying in Asia, just like the line of crap I was fed when flying the DC8 in MIA. That base was supposed to grow into 10 airplanes. Never got to be more than 2. As I posted earlier ABX is not into the charter business, they have about as much clue on this type of business as DHL had in express freight.....

 

[scarface]

Don't forget the 747s we were going to crew!

 

[727Niteflyer]

I keep saying ABX isnt able to compete in the charter market with the 767s and the wages, especially in mia.

 

[nitefr8dog]

yes they were hiring; for our ever expanding Asia operations. We were told there would be 10 to 20 planes flying in Asia, just like the line of crap I was fed when flying the DC8 in MIA. That base was supposed to grow into 10 airplanes. Never got to be more than 2. As I posted earlier ABX is not into the charter business, they have about as much clue on this type of business as DHL had in express freight.....

We have 6 aircraft in MIA right now.

 

[nitefr8dog]

I keep saying ABX isnt able to compete in the charter market with the 767s and the wages, especially in mia.

Even if we can run cheaper by the hour than Cappy or Ati? 60 to 80 bucks an hour is nothing compared to the gas and maintenance costs of 3and 4 engine and 3 man crew aircraft. You say we can't compete prove it. Our union can, we have done all the cost numbers it is what our whole new contract is about.

 

[erichartmann]

yes they were hiring; for our ever expanding Asia operations. We were told there would be 10 to 20 planes flying in Asia, just like the line of crap I was fed when flying the DC8 in MIA. That base was supposed to grow into 10 airplanes. Never got to be more than 2. As I posted earlier ABX is not into the charter business, they have about as much clue on this type of business as DHL had in express freight.....

I never heard more than 5, maybe 6 and that was contingent on ANA opening up Naha, which hasn't happened yet. I never heard anything to suggest the 747 was more than a pipe dream, didn't even qualify as a rumor...:laugh:

 

[mxer]

My bet is that after AJV is finished hiring, ABX and any other contracters will be finished there anyway. Thats the reason they have been hiring and saying that they wanted to double the size of the pilot group.

 

[Box-Hauler]

You guys missed the point of my post. The point was and still is that ABX is not serious about charter ops. They dabble in it. Kind of like me playing Texas hold-em on the internet, I might be ok against the 12 year old but no way I could win in a tournament in Vegas. ABX cannot win in Vegas either because they are not serious. As for the 6 planes in MIA now my post was referring to the DC8 we had down there. How many crews are in MIA. With 6 planes you should need a minimum of 20 crews, (reality should be 42 crews but lets not get crazy). The bid pack has 15 crews. That is less staffing than the ILN standard 2.5. (there is 1 or 2 guys on LOA).

Point being they are not and will not be serious about charter ops, I do hope they get serious soon so as to avoid my upcoming unpaid vacation.

 

[727Niteflyer]

Even if we can run cheaper by the hour than Cappy or Ati? 60 to 80 bucks an hour is nothing compared to the gas and maintenance costs of 3and 4 engine and 3 man crew aircraft. You say we can't compete prove it. Our union can, we have done all the cost numbers it is what our whole new contract is about.

thats why all you see doing charter in miami are 3 and 4 engine aircraft, with 3 man cockpits. According to another post you have 6 airplanes with barely enough crews to operate them.

 

[nitefr8dog]

You guys missed the point of my post. The point was and still is that ABX is not serious about charter ops. They dabble in it. Kind of like me playing Texas hold-em on the internet, I might be ok against the 12 year old but no way I could win in a tournament in Vegas. ABX cannot win in Vegas either because they are not serious. As for the 6 planes in MIA now my post was referring to the DC8 we had down there. How many crews are in MIA. With 6 planes you should need a minimum of 20 crews, (reality should be 42 crews but lets not get crazy). The bid pack has 15 crews. That is less staffing than the ILN standard 2.5. (there is 1 or 2 guys on LOA).

Point being they are not and will not be serious about charter ops, I do hope they get serious soon so as to avoid my upcoming unpaid vacation.

I guess when we cancel flights for no crews they would probabaly bring more crews in. It would be fine by me as I am losing my seat in the near future.

 

[nitefr8dog]

thats why all you see doing charter in miami are 3 and 4 engine aircraft, with 3 man cockpits. According to another post you have 6 airplanes with barely enough crews to operate them.

So am I to understand if you had a choice to run your own airline you would rather use 3 man crewed and 3/4 engine older aircraft even if the hourly cost to operate such crews and equipment cost more? ( I am talking about the combined hourly cost crews and equipment)

 

[nitefr8dog]

thats why all you see doing charter in miami are 3 and 4 engine aircraft, with 3 man cockpits. According to another post you have 6 airplanes with barely enough crews to operate them.

How many are making money? Ive seen alot going T.U.

 

[727Niteflyer]

How many are making money? Ive seen alot going T.U.

some have been around for a loooong time. Im gonna use the best airplane for the market. Thats way I dont think the 767-200 has much of a market for charter in miami. Is their work ? Im sure their is. can you make a buisness off of it ? I doubt it. Makes me wonder if ABX is actually making money on their aircraft in MIA. Amerijet Im sure doesnt pay alot.

If it was that simple than we (cappy) would have all 75's. Right now that airplane is to expensive to replace the 72. And I dont think from talking to the ATI folks that the 76-200 can replace the 8 on a lot of missions.

 

[nitefr8dog]

some have been around for a loooong time. Im gonna use the best airplane for the market. Thats way I dont think the 767-200 has much of a market for charter in miami. Is their work ? Im sure their is. can you make a buisness off of it ? I doubt it. Makes me wonder if ABX is actually making money on their aircraft in MIA. Amerijet Im sure doesnt pay alot.

If it was that simple than we (cappy) would have all 75's. Right now that airplane is to expensive to replace the 72. And I dont think from talking to the ATI folks that the 76-200 can replace the 8 on a lot of missions.

You know I think you are right my guess is we will see a trend where everyone goes back to 72s and 8s. Iam sure Federal would have bought 8s instead of 75s if they could have found some. To bad they did not talk to you first.

 

[bukakke]

Lol, i guess their wus know test four learnin thangs at Kappy ,wus their? Another reason Cappy does not have all 75's is the simple requirement to be able to read and write the English language.

 

[727flier]

Lol, i guess their wus know test four learnin thangs at Kappy ,wus their? Another reason Cappy does not have all 75's is the simple requirement to be able to read and write the English language.

COMO????

 

[727Niteflyer]

You know I think you are right my guess is we will see a trend where everyone goes back to 72s and 8s. Iam sure Federal would have bought 8s instead of 75s if they could have found some. To bad they did not talk to you first.

Fedex transports their own freight, not in the acmi or charter world, and the freight they transport is high dollar. The model is much different.

 

[nitefr8dog]

Fedex transports their own freight, not in the acmi or charter world, and the freight they transport is high dollar. The model is much different.

Both Federal and UPS were fighting pretty hard over the" high dollar" Dhl freight that you say ABX cannot make money on using the 767. Bottom line your numbers are way off. Hourly cost is all that matters and combined cost crews included is cheaper with the 767. But if you can show me how it isn't I am waitig to see.

 

[727Niteflyer]

Both Federal and UPS were fighting pretty hard over the" high dollar" Dhl freight that you say ABX cannot make money on using the 767. Bottom line your numbers are way off. Hourly cost is all that matters and combined cost crews included is cheaper with the 767. But if you can show me how it isn't I am waitig to see.

I didnt say they didnt work in the dhl market. Im sure they were perfect. Im talking about the charter market where your hauling around car parts. Much different.

Believe me if they or the 75 was cheaper you would see them in the bax market right now. They are still to expensive. Management is talking about a refleet within the next 5 years because the aging aircraft program is making operation of the 72 very expensive, but even with that they are still having a difficult time finding 75s at an acceptable price, and those are for DHL in miami where they are paying a pretty good penny for the airplane but they are flying it day and night.

Bax freight doesnt have the same value, and they dont utilize the aircraft enough to justify that payment.