AAI Pilots Beware!!

[Ty Webb]

I know that people are crying no bump and flush for many different reasons but at some point SWA will have to absorb the initial training costs. It can be a one short term cost or a long term costs but either way they still have to pay for it.

Huge difference between training for different Ops Specs and SOP's on the one hand, and full-blown initial type training on the other. If there was a "bump and flush", you could be talking about full-blown training on a new type for a quarter of the combined pilot list. Not going to happen, IMHO.

I doubt there will be a manning issue because you are overmanned when we use SWA pilot/ac ratios.

Maybe . . . It will be interesting to see how much of AirTran's manning difference is caused by our Crew Planning/Crew Scheduling inefficiencies, versus the type of flying we're doing (CDO's and Redeyes, mixing Domestic and Flag Ops, etc.). For years, the Pilots have complained of huge scheduling inefficiencies, I hope SWA's planners will prove we were right.

 

[ivauir]

You have to train all our CA's on HUD procedures

Just the 737 Captains.

and everyone on non-auto-throttles under 10k (a number of our pilots freak out when you turn the A/T off -

That restriction is gone.

operations without simultaneous use of flaps and speed brakes, abandoning the use of AIN or FAC/GP, not to mention it's been a while (if ever after their Cessna days) any of our pilots have flown a jet on steam gauges (a lot of them came out of RJ's), plus training on your Ops Specs, orals, sim training, and check rides. That's going to take more than just a day of classroom and 1 sim session. Even 100 pilots through cross-training per month is 18 months, and yanking 25 pilots per week out of the system, even with our higher reserve staffing levels, will be problematic for scheduling, especially during peak travel times.

Agree that it will take a while to SWAize AAI pilots, but the simplest solution is to leave the 717 procedures in place. Simple = cheap. My prediction is that there will be small changes, but nothing earth shattering initially.

Just for operations and training's sake, I'd be a little surprised at only a 2 year fence. The rest of it, well... without commenting on what I find "fair and equitable", I certainly wouldn't bet against you on that prognostication.

I won't make predictions either, but I wouldn't discount a longer fence. without making a prediction or a prognostication I don't want to be in the back with Ty and Papa flying together ...

I learned a while back never to anticipate what an arbitrator will do... sometimes their decisions make no sense to EITHER party. DL is a good example (the company had already offered him his job back but with no back-pay and the arbitrator didn't even give him that), Twomey-Kasher is another (neither party asked for nor had any intent of assigning a minimum CREDIT value to a reserve pilot's day sitting, the arbitrator went way out in left field on that one and that's what started relations with management headed downhill).

My understanding is that both sides have agreed to a panel of arbitrators, which should help avoid truly wacky decisions.

THAT'S why I hope we see something outside of arbitration. I don't want some weird arbitration award that hoses one side so badly that the culture is irreparably damaged and poisons relations between our groups for years to come.

Agreed. A non arbitrated decision would be amazing, but tough to achieve.

 

[orangebellyav8r]

No problem with manning......All trainees to the bottom and then out the door.....SEE YA, THANKS FOR PLAYING

 

[Kharma Police]

No problem with manning......All trainees to the bottom and then out the door.....SEE YA, THANKS FOR PLAYING

YAWN.......I suggest you review posts made by, "Instructor Dude", your weak attempts at flame baiting are getting quite tiresome and lame.

 

[orangebellyav8r]

GOT YA....you responded.....you trannies are so easy....

 

[Kharma Police]

GOT YA....you responded.....you trainees are so easy....

Congratulations, you are the big winner, now go and give your crash pad buddies a high five and celebrate your flame bait victory! Then tonight (assuming scheduling doesn't use you) you can tell all the chicks at the bar how you are the Master Flame Baiter on FI, I'm sure they will be VERY impressed!

 

[orangebellyav8r]

Thank you...I know your wife was impressed or was that your BF. Cant tell the difference since they both had hairy legs. OH well enjoy the bottom and I will buy you a beer when we fly together.

 

[Kharma Police]

Thank you...I know your wife was impressed or was that your BF. Cant tell the difference since they both had hairy legs. OH well enjoy the bottom and I will buy you a beer when we fly together.

Thanks, even though we are laughing at you, not with you, at least we are laughing!

 

[Ty Webb]

I won't make predictions either, but I wouldn't discount a longer fence. without making a prediction or a prognostication I don't want to be in the back with Ty and Papa flying together ...

I hope you're joking. We're all professionals here and big boys and girls. When the list is done, it is done. I'll fly with anyone, but SLI will likely join the ranks of politics and religion . . . generally not a topic of polite cockpit conversation.

 

[scoreboardII]

they can have a fence for as long as they want when the $1,000,000.00 deposit clears.

 

[Dan Roman]

I hope you're joking. We're all professionals here and big boys and girls. When the list is done, it is done. I'll fly with anyone, but SLI will likely join the ranks of politics and religion . . . generally not a topic of polite cockpit conversation.

That's well said. I thought it only appears that some people need to grow up on here, maybe not? If you guys bring this to the cockpit and allow it to effect you. You are in over your head trying to be an airline pilot.

 

[Lonestar]

Evening Papa,

The insinuation that one pilot group is better than the other because of an arbitrary number is a little insulting; to an entire group of pilots that you will one day fly with. We both know that the numbers never tell the whole story of a pilot.

I think the discussion of who is most qualified demeans us all a little bit. I understand that you feel you're defending. I respect that. I think the comparison of our value as pilots is a destructive path. For us all.

As another SWA pilot explained earlier, please don't take this issue as a commentary on the quality of your pilots. I think the point was, and is, that the youth of the AAI pilots will have a negative impact on the progression of SWA pilots. This is directly attributed to the lower minimums used in the past. I know that AAI pilots hired in the last 5-7 years have been very qualified, but those aren't the ones to be concerned with. There a good number of captain that have been around for a while that are fairly young. There are plenty of AAI captains that are younger than the first officers they fly with...which is the point of all this. At the time when AA, DAL, UAL, SWA, UPS, FDX, etc, were hiring, there were much less qualified pilots getting hired by AAI. Its nothing personal, but it is true and it can have a significant impact for SWA pilots.

And for the record, I completely agree with your statement that 'the numbers never tell the whole story of a pilot', but there were a number of years were it took a bigger set of numbers to get hired at SWA than at AAI.

 

[malibuVride]

THAT'S why I hope we see something outside of arbitration. I don't want some weird arbitration award that hoses one side so badly that the culture is irreparably damaged and poisons relations between our groups for years to come.

I agree completely! Despite the rants of a few SWA guys, I believe the group as a whole, and SWAPA, will be reasonable and fair with this group. Given the realities of the massive increases in pay, benefits, and QOL, and the recent strike vote, I'm not sure even a panel of arbitrators would be a good gamble.

Whatever gets this group away from the destructive ways of this mgmt is what I want!

 

[Lear70]

Lear, This whole purchase of AT is an expensive proposition. I know that people are crying no bump and flush for many different reasons but at some point SWA will have to absorb the initial training costs. It can be a one short term cost or a long term costs but either way they still have to pay for it. The logistics of the training will be more an issue than the money. The training/re-training itself will take at least 18 months but probably longer.

True enough, just would be surprised if they JUST get through training all the AirTran pilots onto the Southwest certificate then almost IMMEDIATELY thereafter have a flush and bump and start the training cycles all over again. Just doesn't make monetary sense to me, but then again, I just fly 'em.

I doubt there will be a manning issue because you are overmanned when we use SWA pilot/ac ratios.

That's a common misconception I tried to clear up last week. Airlines (including Southwest) don't staff on "crews per aircraft", they staff on "crews required for overall block hours".

If you do the math just for "crews per aircraft", and subtract our people on long-term leave, yes, we're a little overstaffed compared to you. HOWEVER, that's not how the airline figures out crews.

When you compare our BLOCK HOURS per aircraft to YOUR block hours per aircraft, you see we don't run our aircraft as much per day as you do... not even close. Your airframe utilization per day is MUCH higher in terms of block hours. Those block hours have to be filled by pilots (we're already flying 80 hours a month). The 15% increase in block hours to bring us up to your utilization, even if we flew 90 hours a month, would still leave us considerably short on pilots.

Once we start running our planes on your schedules, we're dramatically understaffed, by almost 200 pilots. This comes straight from our Scheduling Committee Chairman I just flew with 4 days ago on my last trip after he recently was discussing this with your Scheduling Committee at SWAPA. Give 'em a shout, I'm sure they can verify.

The hiring at Southwest is going to have to continue... good news for everyone!

 

[Rough67]

As another SWA pilot explained earlier, please don't take this issue as a commentary on the quality of your pilots. I think the point was, and is, that the youth of the AAI pilots will have a negative impact on the progression of SWA pilots. This is directly attributed to the lower minimums used in the past. I know that AAI pilots hired in the last 5-7 years have been very qualified, but those aren't the ones to be concerned with. There a good number of captain that have been around for a while that are fairly young. There are plenty of AAI captains that are younger than the first officers they fly with...which is the point of all this. At the time when AA, DAL, UAL, SWA, UPS, FDX, etc, were hiring, there were much less qualified pilots getting hired by AAI. Its nothing personal, but it is true and it can have a significant impact for SWA pilots.

And for the record, I completely agree with your statement that 'the numbers never tell the whole story of a pilot', but there were a number of years were it took a bigger set of numbers to get hired at SWA than at AAI.

man oh man.. get over yourself .. please.