AAI Pilots Beware!!

[RedDogC130]

I should have been more clear....since 2002 over 200 have come to swa. Nice try tough.

 

[Skybus]

Source please??

I think over 300 SW pilots left for American, United and Delta over the years.

I'm sure the arbitrator will consider that number to the same extent!

 

[jball2]

The point is the AAI people left to come to SWA. The people that left SWA 11years ago went to airlines not involved in this acquisition making them immaterial to the discussion. Nice try though!

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

 

[Ty Webb]

I should have been more clear....since 2002 over 200 have come to swa. Nice try tough.

I doubt it, but if it's true, hiring 200 of our most junior guys really defeats the "it's so much harder to get hired at SWA" argument.

 

[GuppyWN]

I flew with a former Airtran Captain recently. He was not one of your most junior pilots but I get why you're making the arguments you are. The insecurity and uncertainty of the future has you lashing out.

Gup

 

[Ty Webb]

I flew with a former Airtran Captain recently. He was not one of your most junior pilots but I get why you're making the arguments you are. The insecurity and uncertainty of the future has you lashing out.

Gup

Gup, I just see myself as responding to some of the same "lashing out" from SWA guys.

How would you like to be a mid-seniority captain at an established, profitable airline, and have people telling you that you should be happy to be stapled, to be downgraded (here's a few extra bucks) or that you will be sold off?

If you want to see how other, more impartial airline pilots view this situation, hop over to the forums at www.airlinepilotcentral.com I don't generally feel the need to post there, because the discussion is more balanced.

 

[GuppyWN]

Ty,

It doesn't make any difference that your carrier was profitable. The fact is that your carrier was for sale and Gary has decided to buy it. Now it's up to our unions and lawyers to work out what happens to you and I.

It's undeniable that every Airtran pilot WILL have a monumental bump in career expectations. Expectations is money Ty, not from what seat you earn the money. It is also undeniable that by adding you guys to our list "you" are clogging up our growth and in essence taking our upgrade seats from our pilots.

I have no problem giving you guys some sort of integration into our list but my opening bid assumes that you actually understand the career bump you just got.

Do you?

Gup

 

[Ty Webb]

Do you understand that one major "event" could render your contract no better than ours?

Do you understand that seniority is forever, pay is not?

This conversation looks as unproductive as the rest.

 

[ASADFW7]

There is a difference between what the law requires and what is logical. Reading Flighinfo contributors argue logic of equal value and worth between SWA and Airtran is laughable. The whole industry has been trying to knock SWA down, a few dudes on Flightinfo are not going to be the final straw.

 

[PapaWoody]

I think over 300 SW pilots left for American, United and Delta over the years.

I'm sure the arbitrator will consider that number to the same extent!

Maybe, maybe not. The fact is that no one ever left SWA for AAI. And if you want to include the guys who left SWA for AA, UAL, and DAL, then lets add to the numbers of AAI guys that left for SWA (200ish) all the guys who left AAI for any other major airline like AA, UAL, and DAL. Probably brings the numbers up in the thousands. The main point is that airline pilots will only leave their job if they think that doing so will increase the quality of their career. Sometimes they are right, sometimes they are wrong. But in the case of AAI, no one has ever voluntarily left SWA or any other major airline to go to AAI. Is that relevant? Maybe, maybe not. But it does speak to career expectations and the general consensus of the pilot community about the quality of the AAI career.

As for SWA guys trying to tell you guys how to / how not to deal with your management and forcing compliance with your new contract, I agree that it is completely none of our business. You as a group should do whatever you need to to make sure they live up to the agreements that they made. The good news is that all those issues will end on DOCC, as I'm sure GK will live up to the agreements you have in place. Good luck (sincerely) with those issues til then.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

 

[PapaWoody]

I doubt it, but if it's true, hiring 200 of our most junior guys really defeats the "it's so much harder to get hired at SWA" argument.

From an objective standpoint, it is harder to get hired at SWA. Our hiring minimums are double yours. That's not flame, just facts. As for the 200ish guys that got hired here and left AAI, that number doesn't include the ones that either A) didn't get hired after 1,2, even 3 attempts and 2) (& more importantly) the number of AAI F/Os (and present CA's, when they were F/Os) that didn't have the minimums to even apply to SWA. Hiring minimums do qualify objectively as a "which job is harder to get" argument, btw. And it is relevant, because it explains why your group is approx. 5 yrs younger on average than our group, which is why it will be included in the arbitration decision, imo.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

 

[humveedriver]

Ty,

It doesn't make any difference that your carrier was profitable. The fact is that your carrier was for sale and Gary has decided to buy it. Now it's up to our unions and lawyers to work out what happens to you and I.

It's undeniable that every Airtran pilot WILL have a monumental bump in career expectations. Expectations is money Ty, not from what seat you earn the money. It is also undeniable that by adding you guys to our list "you" are clogging up our growth and in essence taking our upgrade seats from our pilots.

I have no problem giving you guys some sort of integration into our list but my opening bid assumes that you actually understand the career bump you just got.

Do you?

Gup

Gup,

Just curious on what your thoughts or other SWA pilots thoughts are on the 717 and how that aircraft and training will be integrated into SWA?

 

[FIREMAN]

Ty,

It doesn't make any difference that your carrier was profitable. The fact is that your carrier was for sale and Gary has decided to buy it.
Gup

GK and his crew came to BF, knocked on the door and asked politely to buy airtran. You guys are use to being the ones in white hats riding to the rescue. That is not the case with this acquisition

As part of its ongoing evaluation of potential business combinations, Southwest’s senior management in early 2010 preliminarily identified AirTran as constituting a good strategic fit with Southwest’s business, brand and culture. On April 21, 2010, Gary Kelly, Southwest’s Chairman of the Board, President and Chief Executive Officer, telephoned Robert L. Fornaro, AirTran’s Chairman, President and Chief Executive Officer, and asked Mr. Fornaro if he would meet with him in person to discuss a potential business matter, without indicating the specific nature of the matter. On May 6, 2010, Mr. Kelly and Mr. Fornaro met in a suburb of Dallas, Texas, and Mr. Kelly asked Mr. Fornaro if AirTran would be open to discussions regarding an acquisition by Southwest. Mr. Fornaro replied that he believed that management of AirTran had a duty to consider any adequately priced and financed acquisition offer and should such an offer be forthcoming from Southwest, management of AirTran would so consider it.

 

[Candide]

Do you understand that one major "event" could render your contract no better than ours?

Ty,

I understand your point, but consider this: a cataclysmic "event" that causes gigantic reductions in pay and QOL to SWAPA's CBA would almost certainly run an independent AAI out of business.

If the "event" happened--requiring SWA to gut our contract (probably in CH11)-- Fornaro would be gently gliding to earth on his golden parachute and you'd most likely be on the street, with no one hiring, hoping and praying that SWA, Fedex, etc. open their application window so you could gain employment as a new-hire FO.

Remember the oil spike of 2008? SWA was still profitable for the year with billions of cash cushion. AAI was hanging on by a thread. At least one analyst predicted liquidation. If oil remained $140 bbl for much longer, the Flightinfo servers would have a lot more space today because none of these SLI threads would likely exist.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Gup,

Just curious on what your thoughts or other SWA pilots thoughts are on the 717 and how that aircraft and training will be integrated into SWA?

Real simple.....make the sw pilots pft on it. After all they already did it once!:smash:

 

[johnsonrod]

Ty,

It doesn't make any difference that your carrier was profitable. The fact is that your carrier was for sale and Gary has decided to buy it. Now it's up to our unions and lawyers to work out what happens to you and I.

It's undeniable that every Airtran pilot WILL have a monumental bump in career expectations. Expectations is money Ty, not from what seat you earn the money. It is also undeniable that by adding you guys to our list "you" are clogging up our growth and in essence taking our upgrade seats from our pilots.

I have no problem giving you guys some sort of integration into our list but my opening bid assumes that you actually understand the career bump you just got.

Do you?

Gup

You also mean "arbitrators" will work out what happens, right? You Southwest guys like to leave that part out. It is the unknown, someone impartial who will look at the actual story and render a decision. That makes you guys poop your pants just thinking about it.

 

[RedDogC130]

You also mean "arbitrators" will work out what happens, right? You Southwest guys like to leave that part out. It is the unknown, someone impartial who will look at the actual story and render a decision. That makes you guys poop your pants just thinking about it.

I for one feel we would do just fine with an arbitrator. It all comes down to the facts of an argument. I feel our facts supported in an argument will be good

 

[johnsonrod]

From an objective standpoint, it is harder to get hired at SWA. Our hiring minimums are double yours. That's not flame, just facts. As for the 200ish guys that got hired here and left AAI, that number doesn't include the ones that either A) didn't get hired after 1,2, even 3 attempts and 2) (& more importantly) the number of AAI F/Os (and present CA's, when they were F/Os) that didn't have the minimums to even apply to SWA. Hiring minimums do qualify objectively as a "which job is harder to get" argument, btw. And it is relevant, because it explains why your group is approx. 5 yrs younger on average than our group, which is why it will be included in the arbitration decision, imo.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

Was that a part of the Delta and NWA SLI arbitration? Delta has always had that crazy psych test. Did the arbitrators take that into consideration? I doubt it. The arbitrators will look at what each airline brings to the table, and then decide on something that is fair. I heard once that Southwest has a lot of Blue Angels and Thunderbirds flying for them. Does that mean the arbitrators should staple the Airtran guys because of that? Big deal. You SWA pilots had better look into recent SLIs and see what the arbitrators looked at. I think a lot of it is online. Do it.

 

[johnsonrod]

I for one feel we would do just fine with an arbitrator. It all comes down to the facts of an argument. I feel our facts supported in an argument will be good

Good. Finally a SWA pilot who thinks the arbitration process will work. You are right, the lawyers bring the arguments, the arbitrators hear them, and give a decision. That is how it all works. Thanks for bringing back some sanity.

 

[GuppyWN]

You also mean "arbitrators" will work out what happens, right? You Southwest guys like to leave that part out. It is the unknown, someone impartial who will look at the actual story and render a decision. That makes you guys poop your pants just thinking about it.

If you think I am afraid of an arbitrator you are sorely mistaken.

Matter of fact I think we'd do better with an arbitrator than with our own pilots voting on Airtrans future.

Gup