AAI Pilots Beware!!

[ivauir]

After AA/TWA the new law in the RLA came to be. I would imagine an arbitrator would be looking T those implications and apply them to this merger. I would guarantee that 6000 SWA pilots would be opposed to getting paid guarantee to keep a few hundred airtran guys on property. An arbitrator knows that.....aka TWA. BTW we furloughed 169 pilots not a couple hundred. Your pay rates mean nothing if 800 airtran pilots were without work due to a staple. There is a way to merge the lists where no SWA pilot is affected negatively and the airtran pilots gets fair shake. It will be fair and many of the FI guys on here will be upset.

The concept that relative seniority would be a wash for SWA pilots is deeply flawed.

The airplanes you bring with you need to be refinanced. Increasing our debt to equity ratio.

Your fleet is unhedged. Which increases our exposure to rising fuel costs.

Your group is younger. Absorbing you will dilute the effect of our substantial retirements.

Just a short list, but an arbitrator will consider all of the factors that affect career expectations. Including the substantial gap in compensation. I don't purport to know "the" answer, but relative seniority wouldn't even approach the threshold of "fair".

 

[funnyman12]

Our percentage of fuel hedged and price is very comparable , if not, almost identical to SW. Check our SEC filings.

 

[PapaWoody]

Was that a part of the Delta and NWA SLI arbitration? Delta has always had that crazy psych test. Did the arbitrators take that into consideration? I doubt it. The arbitrators will look at what each airline brings to the table, and then decide on something that is fair. I heard once that Southwest has a lot of Blue Angels and Thunderbirds flying for them. Does that mean the arbitrators should staple the Airtran guys because of that? Big deal. You SWA pilots had better look into recent SLIs and see what the arbitrators looked at. I think a lot of it is online. Do it.

I luv how you guys always quote DAL/NWA merger, when that doesn't even come close to bearing any relation to this acquisition. The thing about "precedent" is, there has to actually be similarities to the situations, which except for the fact that we all fly airplanes, there aren't many more with DAL/NWA. Of course, there's a lot more similarities to Chautaqua/Shuttle America but I don't expect you to actually acknowledge that.

Anyhoo...my point about the hiring mins is that it has a definite effect on the makeup of the separate lists. Lower hiring mins at AAI means guys can get hired there first, having an artificially inflated DOH at the lesser carrier. More turnover on your list (ie more guys leaving AAI to go to other airlines) plus younger carrier means that you have far less retirements as a percentage than we do on the horizon. Combine your earlier hiring opportunities with your younger ages with our forthcoming retirements, even DOH has a negative effect on every SWA guy's expected career progression. Meanwhile, your "career expectations" just took an unexpected leap, one that exceeds any realistic expectations that you ever had at AAI. And those are things that an arbitrator will consider in rendering his decision.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

 

[Tweet-a-Lishus]

Now Papa, You know the Airtran guys aren't going to agree with you, because what you say actually makes sense! If we want to know how the SLI is going to go we need to ask Ty or Lear. They seem to know everything.

 

[dicko]

I luv how you guys always quote DAL/NWA merger, when that doesn't even come close to bearing any relation to this acquisition. The thing about "precedent" is, there has to actually be similarities to the situations, which except for the fact that we all fly airplanes, there aren't many more with DAL/NWA. Of course, there's a lot more similarities to Chautaqua/Shuttle America but I don't expect you to actually acknowledge that.

Anyhoo...my point about the hiring mins is that it has a definite effect on the makeup of the separate lists. Lower hiring mins at AAI means guys can get hired there first, having an artificially inflated DOH at the lesser carrier. More turnover on your list (ie more guys leaving AAI to go to other airlines) plus younger carrier means that you have far less retirements as a percentage than we do on the horizon. Combine your earlier hiring opportunities with your younger ages with our forthcoming retirements, even DOH has a negative effect on every SWA guy's expected career progression. Meanwhile, your "career expectations" just took an unexpected leap, one that exceeds any realistic expectations that you ever had at AAI. And those are things that an arbitrator will consider in rendering his decision.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

Evening Papa,

He doesn't work for AirTran, nor does he represent the views of our pilots.

I would bet that in the last eight years the number of pilots hired with less than 1000 hours of 121 TPIC is less than 2-3 %. Apparently it happened however the numbers are tiny. I know one of them and she is exceptional. When I was hired you could not get an interview without far greater than 1000 121 TPIC. As I said there were a few small exceptions.

The insinuation that one pilot group is better than the other because of an arbitrary number is a little insulting; to an entire group of pilots that you will one day fly with. We both know that the numbers never tell the whole story of a pilot.

I think the discussion of who is most qualified demeans us all a little bit. I understand that you feel you're defending. I respect that. I think the comparison of our value as pilots is a destructive path. For us all.

Have a good New Year

D.

 

[jonjuan]

The insinuation that one pilot group is better than the other because of an arbitrary number is a little insulting; to an entire group of pilots that you will one day fly with. We both know that the numbers never tell the whole story of a pilot.

Bingo- once the arbitrator finds out that papalimpy took 6 years to graduate from a state college where he managed to slip into flight school, finished last in his class, and got his parents to pay for his 737 type and managed not to stutter an entire day during an interview, he'll laugh and toss out any idea that pic hiring "quals" of one group over the other means exactly jack squat.

Senior AAI dude right after 1992 hires. All else in straight ratio. Take it to the bank.

 

[PapaWoody]

Evening Papa,

He doesn't work for AirTran, nor does he represent the views of our pilots.

I would bet that in the last eight years the number of pilots hired with less than 1000 hours of 121 TPIC is less than 2-3 %. Apparently it happened however the numbers are tiny. I know one of them and she is exceptional. When I was hired you could not get an interview without far greater than 1000 121 TPIC. As I said there were a few small exceptions.

The insinuation that one pilot group is better than the other because of an arbitrary number is a little insulting; to an entire group of pilots that you will one day fly with. We both know that the numbers never tell the whole story of a pilot.

I think the discussion of who is most qualified demeans us all a little bit. I understand that you feel you're defending. I respect that. I think the comparison of our value as pilots is a destructive path. For us all.

Have a good New Year

D.

Those are good points D. And just to be clear, I am not trying to imply that our pilot group are better pilots or people. I am just suggesting that the lower minimum qualifications coupled with the higher turnover (guys leaving for other carriers) could be part of the reason that the AAI pilot group is significantly younger, on average, than the SWA pilot group. But I can see how it would seem like I am trying to denigrate the AAI guys; not my intention, and I agree that if we get into that type of argument, no one wins. Especially since we will have to all try to work together and play nice after this is said and done. Happy New Year to you also.

Cheers,
PapaWoody

 

[PapaWoody]

Bingo- once the arbitrator finds out that papalimpy took 6 years to graduate from a state college where he managed to slip into flight school, finished last in his class, and got his parents to pay for his 737 type and managed not to stutter an entire day during an interview, he'll laugh and toss out any idea that pic hiring "quals" of one group over the other means exactly jack squat.

Senior AAI dude right after 1992 hires. All else in straight ratio. Take it to the bank.

Wow, JJ, nice personal attack. Did I hit a nerve with actually making a valid argument? I must have since your "toss out any idea that pic hiring "quals" of one group over the other means exactly jack squat" actually is exactly what I think an arbitrator will do - he will toss out the "idea that pic hiring quals mean jack squat", and agree that they do mean something, not jack squat. Thanks for agreeing with my point. Or was that just your inept use of the English language to make your point rearing its ugly head?:laugh:

PapaWoody

PS You really nailed my profile...thank god I have rich parents

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Scope...

I think the correct term per B/M FAIR AND EQUITABLE

I'm not disagreeing with you.
What you'll find is 8000 versions/definitions of it.

 

[puddlejumper101]

Bingo- once the arbitrator finds out that papalimpy took 6 years to graduate from a state college where he managed to slip into flight school, finished last in his class, and got his parents to pay for his 737 type and managed not to stutter an entire day during an interview, he'll laugh and toss out any idea that pic hiring "quals" of one group over the other means exactly jack squat.

Senior AAI dude right after 1992 hires. All else in straight ratio. Take it to the bank.

i think that's what will happen also, realistically speaking. the question will be what ratio will be used...that makes a big difference. Also, two year fence, and then a system re-bid...then a free-for-all and SLI will be officially over. Left seat only if your seniority can hold it...no seat protection, no base protection. That's realistic.

 

[Lear70]

i think that's what will happen also, realistically speaking. the question will be what ratio will be used...that makes a big difference. Also, two year fence, and then a system re-bid...then a free-for-all and SLI will be officially over. Left seat only if your seniority can hold it...no seat protection, no base protection. That's realistic.

I would be highly shocked with a system re-bid (basically a bump-and-flush) with a new aircraft type. The training costs would be in the Millions.

I'd also be surprised with a fence longer than 3 years if the ratio puts people close to their DOH and 2 may be a bit short, simply because it will take that long to get everyone cross-trained onto Southwest's certificate not even mentioning if there's NEW hiring in the numbers that have been tossed around.

You have to train all our CA's on HUD procedures and everyone on non-auto-throttles under 10k (a number of our pilots freak out when you turn the A/T off - mostly 717 people or Space Cowboys), operations without simultaneous use of flaps and speed brakes, abandoning the use of AIN or FAC/GP, not to mention it's been a while (if ever after their Cessna days) any of our pilots have flown a jet on steam gauges (a lot of them came out of RJ's), plus training on your Ops Specs, orals, sim training, and check rides. That's going to take more than just a day of classroom and 1 sim session. Even 100 pilots through cross-training per month is 18 months, and yanking 25 pilots per week out of the system, even with our higher reserve staffing levels, will be problematic for scheduling, especially during peak travel times.

Just for operations and training's sake, I'd be a little surprised at only a 2 year fence. The rest of it, well... without commenting on what I find "fair and equitable", I certainly wouldn't bet against you on that prognostication. I learned a while back never to anticipate what an arbitrator will do... sometimes their decisions make no sense to EITHER party. DL is a good example (the company had already offered him his job back but with no back-pay and the arbitrator didn't even give him that), Twomey-Kasher is another (neither party asked for nor had any intent of assigning a minimum CREDIT value to a reserve pilot's day sitting, the arbitrator went way out in left field on that one and that's what started relations with management headed downhill).

THAT'S why I hope we see something outside of arbitration. I don't want some weird arbitration award that hoses one side so badly that the culture is irreparably damaged and poisons relations between our groups for years to come.

Happy New Year's everyone!

 

[Tweet-a-Lishus]

Hey JonJuan, Papa was limp when he was with your Momma last night!

 

[Wesb737fo]

Seriously....tweet-a-lishus.....that's what your going with? You pick that name and start talking smack. I guess with only 8 posts we have to assume you are resurrected from some master flame bait specialist that got banned.

 

[FlyinGuy]

Lear, This whole purchase of AT is an expensive proposition. I know that people are crying no bump and flush for many different reasons but at some point SWA will have to absorb the initial training costs. It can be a one short term cost or a long term costs but either way they still have to pay for it. The logistics of the training will be more an issue than the money. The training/re-training itself will take at least 18 months but probably longer.

I doubt there will be a manning issue because you are overmanned when we use SWA pilot/ac ratios.

 

[Kharma Police]

Seriously....tweet-a-lishus.....that's what your going with? You pick that name and start talking smack. I guess with only 8 posts we have to assume you are resurrected from some master flame bait specialist that got banned.

He's more like, "tweet-a-lingus".