AAI conference call

[RadioClash]

If that is true it's completely unacceptable. This isn't a discussion management needs to be involved in. The discussion is between the pilots and their union. Unless you guys have a time machine and you got a Chief Pilot from 1965 who actually represents the PILOTS then he has no business being involved in this.

I'm not a member of your pilot group, so forgive me if I'm getting involved in that which doesn't concern me, but that is a HUGE red flag.

It is true, I listened to the conference call from the beginning and he stated that he was conducting the conference call from the CP's office.

 

[Ace McCoy]

Show me an Airtran pilot who'll vote yes on this turd, and I'll show you...

1) a 12 year+ captain who
2) never sat a day of reserve,
3) likes to taxi sloooooooow,
4) is a top gun pilot who never is nervous about an upcoming checkride, and of course,
5)doesn't mind throwing the rest of the unified pilot group under the "fares lower than we pay our pilots Airtran employee bus"

The beauty of the POS TA is it is an equal opportunity offender. If that 12+ year guy is anywhere near retirement he now faces only 12 months of health care coverage after retirement followed by Cobra til medicare. So a lot of those guys should be voting no too.

 

[Ace McCoy]

It is true, I listened to the conference call from the beginning and he stated that he was conducting the conference call from the CP's office.

Not trying to defend him but I believe that the NPA rented out the room next to the CP's office so there could be a BOD member in ops that could try to sell the POS TA they are so proud of.

 

[newnan]

It is true, I listened to the conference call from the beginning and he stated that he was conducting the conference call from the CP's office.

For what it's worth, he was in the crew lounge around 8:40 PM defending his position and stumbling to justify the 13 hour duty time. He could have been in the CP's office because it was his turn to be at the airport. Someone that was there earlier could let us know who was in the CP's office with him.

 

[TV9Driver]

is there any provision in our union by-laws to take a roll-call vote so everyone can see how everyone voted and can be held accountable?

 

[Lear70]

I've picketed. I've served on committees. I'm currently P2P and on the picket list as well. If asked to do more, I'd step up. Hard to do when I don't live in ATL, but I'd manage it.

I believe the NC has simply lost touch with the pilot group and needs to be replaced. Period.

I, also, don't need to see the full T.A. to know enough to vote No. Allen must have said, "Yeah, that's concessionary" about half a dozen times.

I've done the math with the rigs, and it's only a 3% raise for me this year, 5% next year; that's not even COLA.

My answer is NO. Current book is better than a concessionary contract.

 

[Murphy]

I'm going to read the whole thing from cover to cover. The full TA should have been released soon after the BoD voted. The length of this wait is not acceptable and another warning flag.

 

[Lear70]

They've issued another P2P alert that says the T.A. won't be available until "sometime next week".

 

[Steeler Fan]

Allen was in the crewroom earlier on Thurs. I think Floy left the CP office open for him. I left to fly a trip before the conference call took place, so I'm assuming he was there by himself.

I promised myself that I would read the entire TA (with the Q+A) before I make my final decision and appropriate vote.

One thing that I heard Allen say is that we don't want this merger to go thru without a contract in place. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we do have a contract in place now (it's just ammenable, not revokable). Is the merger/acquistion language that much better that what we have now?

At this point, I'm trying desparately to keep an open mind until all that facts come in, but right now, I have more Q's than A's.

 

[Question4U]

we need ALPA on the property..

ALPA pamphlets circulating should wake up the company.....

 

[redflyer65]

Sounds like a simple shell game. Give them a couple million on this side and take 3 million off the back. Not good.

 

[AFcitrus]

They've issued another P2P alert that says the T.A. won't be available until "sometime next week".

You mean the TA that was supposed to be available yesterday morning. This company is playing our BoD like the incompentent fiddle they are. The longer they delay our seeing this POS TA the less likely we are to call for an early vote (if that's even possible). The company is getting all sorts of "milage" out of having our "useless" BoD agree to a concessionary TA. They are selling it to the media and MEH shareholders like crazy. Between now and the time we get to announce the TA has been voted down, they will have already done their damage at the MEH shareholders meeting (without the threat of the NPA conducting informational picketting and negative media at the shareholders meeting). Any leverage that we had has been pissed away by Allen, Michael and their band incompetent idiots.

Meanwhile the boys down in Orlando are cracking open the champaign and cigars to celebrate 1) keeping us quiet until after the shareholder meeting and 2) the NPA in-fighting that has already started and will continue for years.

I still want to see the meeting minutes from the BoD voting session/Fornaro-kolski closing arguments. I want to know what these guys and the NC got in return for their votes to sell out their membership who pays their salaries. Either they are complete MORONS or they sold us out. My money is on the latter.

 

[j41driver]

Either they are complete MORONS or they sold us out.

...or both

 

[T3700]

We're going to look like a bunch of damn fools if we accept this. Especially after management takes bonuses greater than our combined signing bonuses. I bet we don't see the actual TA until just prior to the vote. This gives them ample time to spin it in their favor.

 

[BFL370]

J41 and AFcitrus,
Im sure that some of the BoD would love to be recalled so you could handle all of this with perefection. Im sure they would rather have free time on this site and with friends/family etc than working for a bunch of backstabbing Pilots who are happy to be hearded like cattle for 2 years by the company only to get mad now. I was told that in the last two years not much more than 5 pilots have even come to the BoD Meetings. We the Pilots have been as much of the problem as any person in the Union, because we are the Union. So cast your vote and send the BoD in with backing to fix this and not with thier knees cut off.

 

[Lear70]

The problem I have with that statement is that the BOD is COMPLETELY aware of what the pilot group wanted, then didn't REQUIRE the NC to get it.

Direct from the BOD was the FACT that the Wilson Polling showed that insurance was at the top of the list, yet we actually gave concessions in this area (elimination of the PPO plan, reduced the amount the cost can increase from 15% down to 10% but gave the company the ability to increase deductibles - which could actually INCREASE our net costs -, and didn't reduce the premium we pay monthly by one red nickel).

To ignore your membership like that is not acceptable, no matter how much or how little turnout you get at the BOD meetings.

Yes, I volunteer my time and would volunteer more, if asked. Yes, I sent my requirements in via email since I wasn't polled. No, I never received a response back until the T.A. came out.

Blaming the membership is a game that seems to happen no matter what union is in place - happened a lot at my last carrier, too. Funny, but you don't see the unions who are able to negotiate good increases in their contracts complaining about lack of support, and their numbers show just as weak a turnout at non-critical BOD and MEC meetings as ours.

Some of the difference is having a company who understands the need to work together to achieve a mutually-livable contract. But part of the difference is having a leadership core that refuses to EVER back down on items stated as "must-haves" by the pilot group.

They want to lead? Great... but remember that Leadership doesn't require constant reinforcement from their constituents; they do what's right for their pilots regardless of how many people show up to meetings. THAT is what's required of a volunteer; it's a mostly-thankless job, but you do it for the reward of helping your fellow pilot.

 

[AFcitrus]

J41 and AFcitrus,
Im sure that some of the BoD would love to be recalled so you could handle all of this with perefection. Im sure they would rather have free time on this site and with friends/family etc than working for a bunch of backstabbing Pilots who are happy to be hearded like cattle for 2 years by the company only to get mad now. ...

First of all, why don't you save us the trouble and send in your resignation now - Allen

Secondly, the NC has had plenty of free time since they have not been flying airplanes for more than two years and have lost all touch with the pilot force. Instead we've been paying their salaries so they can work 10-12 days/month.

And finally, we were acting like professional pilots and flying our trips to make the company money. We did so "thinking" that we could rest easy because we had a group of dedicated people negotiating our next contract and that the reason it was taking so long was because they were standing up to the company. Now we find out that they caved and gave away the "farm" for a miniscule hourly raise that doesn't even make up for COL the past three years.

 

[BFL370]

Well vote this down with a strong turnout and see what happens. But support the Union (yourselves) with strength or the company will do like they did with the AFA and prosper with the time delays of recall of the BoD/NC.

 

[BFL370]

Hey did you guys notice how the company pushed and pushed to have MB replaced off the NC and when he was we got this. They beat up on the NC untill it happened and a LOT of our own bought it and swallowed the hook. The push of anger is now being made towards the BoD/NC again by our own as the enemy, Jane Fonda would be proud, just food for thought.

And I remember at my last airline when a meeting was made at the MEC level, Pilots were out in numbers. It may do no more than provide moral support, but that can give a backbone to a jellfish if it knows it wouldnt be killed. Like when the Hotel guys was fired for speekng up, the Pilot group did nothing to show outrage, why did not every hotel in the system have problems then?

 

[gt1900]

First off... MB may be very smart, but his is an @ss.. Simple as that. I woulnd't negotiate with this guy... Secondly, when the NPA went out and called the Company "Lorenzo Style managment", whoever thought to say that should have been recaled immediatly... BFL370, would you negotiate with someone who called you the spawn of satin? I don't care if our management is "Lorenzo style" (which I don't believe they are at all). You don't go to the press and start bashing the people you are trying to negotiate a contract with... Kinda like calling a car salesman a d0uche bag when your trying to get the cheapest price for that shiny BMW from the same car salesman. Secondly, AFCitrus is right, the AAI pilots put their faith in the NPA to negotiate a "Firm, Focused, Fair" contract.. What we got was not focused, or fair... We put faith in AP and his crew in to deliver "Focused and Fair".. We got neither.. AP and his crew caved, and caved hard.... I don't belive I have ever seen this pilot group as united as they are right now, problem is, they are united in their anger towards our union for delivering a crap contract.... Wait until after the vote, the unity will only grow...

 

[BFL370]

My point is made for me. Good luck with your direction.

 

[Lear70]

So, BFL, you think the BOD and NC are COMPLETELY BLAMELESS in this situation, even though they violated the instructions of the pilot group as directed by the Wilson Polling data?

Hint: the company didn't have this data, so why should we blame SOLELY them for it?

For What It's Worth, I am p*ssed as hell at the senior management of this company. They have the opportunity to turn this airline into so much more than it really is, are making good money and have the potential to make a LOT more going forward, yet they firmly concentrate their efforts into negotiating a T.A. that degrades the quality of life of the employees.

Just because I blame the company (mostly) doesn't mean I think the BOD and NC are guiltless. It would be a lot better if they didn't hide behind arguments like "we didn't feel supported" when they had some of the highest Wilson Polling participation numbers as well as voter turnout numbers for the last election than most MEC's ever get.

If this deal is voted down (and I hope to God we're successful in doing so), the BOD needs to immediately step up and take the entire NC and replace them, then apologize to the pilot group for not following the Wilson Polling data, RE-RUN the Wilson Polling data (now that everyone will have a fresh idea in their head what they REALLY want to see in a T.A.), and send a new group in to modify the existing Agreement instead of re-inventing the wheel.

Otherwise, any recall efforts may be realized and we get the infighting for a couple months that you (and others) are worried about. You must ACT to prevent what is building, as people need a way to express and vent their anger and frustration.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

For What It's Worth, I am p*ssed as hell at the senior management of this company. They have the opportunity to turn this airline into so much more than it really is, are making good money and have the potential to make a LOT more going forward, yet they firmly concentrate their efforts into negotiating a T.A. that degrades the quality of life of the employees.

Um, just a question. Isn't it their duty to get the best contract for the sahreholders that they can?? IE...the worst one for us? WHy be angry at them? They are just doing their jobs?

Seems to me the NC dropped the ball here. Onthe other hand, maybe they WANT a 95% no vote. They can take that back to MGMT's negotiators and say, "see...we told you."

 

[Lear70]

Um, just a question. Isn't it their duty to get the best contract for the sahreholders that they can?? IE...the worst one for us? WHy be angry at them? They are just doing their jobs?

Seems to me the NC dropped the ball here. Onthe other hand, maybe they WANT a 95% no vote. They can take that back to MGMT's negotiators and say, "see...we told you."

Yeah, I was wondering about that last part, and that's possible. Time will tell, I guess, or maybe we'll never know.

As far as the company doing their jobs? I don't buy that. You don't DELIBERATELY try to decrease your pilot's quality of life if your company is making money.

I hate to pull the Southwest card, but you would NEVER see that company do this to their employees. They understand that employees are what make the company WORK. Our management team doesn't seem to understand that fundamental truth, or they would have simply asked for current book plus COLA, since they've been able to turn a profit under the current Agreement.

But no, they are taking back more while giving just barely COLA raises to most of the pilots, not to mention RAPING their new-hires.

That doesn't sound like responsible leadership to me... Maybe I missed something in the Leadership seminars.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

Yeah, I was wondering about that last part, and that's possible. Time will tell, I guess, or maybe we'll never know.

As far as the company doing their jobs? I don't buy that. You don't DELIBERATELY try to decrease your pilot's quality of life if your company is making money.

I hate to pull the Southwest card, but you would NEVER see that company do this to their employees. They understand that employees are what make the company WORK. Our management team doesn't seem to understand that fundamental truth, or they would have simply asked for current book plus COLA, since they've been able to turn a profit under the current Agreement.

But no, they are taking back more while giving just barely COLA raises to most of the pilots, not to mention RAPING their new-hires.

That doesn't sound like responsible leadership to me... Maybe I missed something in the Leadership seminars.

I agree with you mostly. SWA is kind of unique in this respect though. Name 10 companies that are like SWA..without the help of Google...regarding employee relations. This is the new corporate mentality of America. Their job is to squeeze every drop they can from us. If our managment can take form us, and increase "shareholder value" (and bonuses), they will do it every time, like 99+% of corps. It's our NC and BOD that said..."OK". And on the subject of another thread here..... "if you want to keep living like a Republican, you sure as hell better start voting Democrat!"

PS SAP II is now the biggest joke i have ever seen.

 

[Lear70]

Yeah, I've submitted just shy of a DOZEN Sap 2 requests.

They've put asterisks on my CrewTrac schedule, meaning they've denied them, but no denied reasons in a return email or even something I can see on CrewTrac.

I'm guessing they're denying them based on weekend coverage (I'm trying to trade out of my weekends) but it would be nice to at least KNOW that's what they're doing

Personally, I think they're using FLICA to enter and process them with the same artificial floor they used before. Why not? It's the quickest and cheapest way for them to do it...

And what's with not being able to use Google? Google ROCKS!

And no, I can't... point well-served, but it doesn't change the fact that a responsible company wouldn't hose their employees. Maybe I'm being naive, but I believe most companies at least want to keep the status quo with their employees. My wife's hospital doesn't come to her every few years for a pay cut or insurance concessions (thank God for her $80 a paycheck health insurance which is, by the way, the same as our Bronze HMO plan I would pay $150+ every 2 months for).

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

Yeah, I've submitted just shy of a DOZEN Sap 2 requests.

They've put asterisks on my CrewTrac schedule, meaning they've denied them, but no denied reasons in a return email or even something I can see on CrewTrac.

I'm guessing they're denying them based on weekend coverage (I'm trying to trade out of my weekends) but it would be nice to at least KNOW that's what they're doing

Personally, I think they're using FLICA to enter and process them with the same artificial floor they used before. Why not? It's the quickest and cheapest way for them to do it...

And what's with not being able to use Google? Google ROCKS!

And no, I can't... point well-served, but it doesn't change the fact that a responsible company wouldn't hose their employees. Maybe I'm being naive, but I believe most companies at least want to keep the status quo with their employees. My wife's hospital doesn't come to her every few years for a pay cut or insurance concessions (thank God for her $80 a paycheck health insurance which is, by the way, the same as our Bronze HMO plan I would pay $150+ every 2 months for).

At least you're getting denied. The same trip I requested over six hours ago is still in OT, and no one has even looked at my schedule. I'll vote no on this TA based on SAPII/Flica alone.

I know several people that would kill for our insurance, so that's not something that makes me vote no....the retirement med bennies is though. Again, I think that our NC is convinced that this is a good deal, so if you are KG, and you can get the union to pass this as a good deal, why wouldn't you?

 

[Lear70]

At least you're getting denied. The same trip I requested over six hours ago is still in OT, and no one has even looked at my schedule. I'll vote no on this TA based on SAPII/Flica alone.

I know several people that would kill for our insurance, so that's not something that makes me vote no....the retirement med bennies is though. Again, I think that our NC is convinced that this is a good deal, so if you are KG, and you can get the union to pass this as a good deal, why wouldn't you?

Because it'll p*ss off a large portion of the pilot group, the APU's will run, the single-engine taxi will die as soon as you hit the ramp exits, people will stop going the extra mile for the passengers and company (yes, quite a few pilots still do that, myself included), and our product will deteriorate and the fuel costs will skyrocket.

If you screw your employees, they'll screw you right back. Been a rule of consumerism for a long, long time.

I don't know of anyone (except some retired pilots who aren't elligible for medicare yet or self-employed types) who would enjoy our insurance.

This is my 4th airline with 3 charter companies before that and this is the worst (and most expensive) insurance I've ever seen. Hell, PCL was self-insured through Wausau Benefits and my family coverage was $60 a paycheck for our PPO plan, and that was a REGIONAL airline.

I expect this company to do better. I wonder if management has the SAME insurance plan and costs?

 

[gt1900]

I agree that SWA is a bit different than most company's.. However, SWA could very well be in a rough situation in 10 years as well.. You can bet that SWA would come for wage concessions if they needed to..... My mom has given me the best advice in life... #1. If any one stock is making too much money for you, sell it. When stocks go up to much to fast it usually means its gonna come down even harder.... #2. Sometimes the worst company to work for is the best company to work for!! She retired from a company who is notorious for paying thier employees as little as they possibly can.. Yet, after 20+ years with them she retired with a hell of a retirment. The company is notoriously cut throat, but continues to make money, work thier employees hard, and is always rated as one of the best company's to work for (funny isn't it)... So, in other words.. Yes, it is AAI's job to pay its pilots as little as possible yet still get the pilot contract passed... That is part of the reason AAI has continued to make money while other company's haven't.. Look at UAL and DAL.. Those company's folded and gave thier pilots huge industry leading contracts.. Not that I'm against huge contracts (hell, I'm just as greedy as the rest of you), but those decisions, along with many other poor decisions, are the reason UAL and DAL were in the trouble they were.......

As much as I wouldn't expect the AAI pilots to accept the first contract that AAI try's to give us, I wouldn't expect AAI to give us a contract that we would accept either.... Get it? I believe AAI is feeling the pilots out to figure out what the minimum contract is we will accept.. And as much as I hate to say it, thats smart business. Sometimes we all need to take a step back and realize its just business from both sides, nothing personal. I don't believe the company or the NPA is really trying to screw anyone.. This is just the negotiating process.. We will get a decent contract... Well, I believe we will get a contract that passes by around 50-55%, but this first TA isn't it... Remember the last contract and the FA's contract? This is the same thing.. Patience boys.. It will come..

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

Because it'll p*ss off a large portion of the pilot group, the APU's will run, the single-engine taxi will die as soon as you hit the ramp exits, people will stop going the extra mile for the passengers and company (yes, quite a few pilots still do that, myself included), and our product will deteriorate and the fuel costs will skyrocket.

If you screw your employees, they'll screw you right back. Been a rule of consumerism for a long, long time.

There's a problem with your logic. We're not screwing MGMT. We're screwing ourselves. We're the ones who will be looking for new jobs. They'll just laugh take their parachue and go to another airline. No biggie for them. So it's an immature and short sighted view on the part of us.

I don't know of anyone (except some retired pilots who aren't elligible for medicare yet or self-employed types) who would enjoy our insurance.

This is my 4th airline with 3 charter companies before that and this is the worst (and most expensive) insurance I've ever seen. Hell, PCL was self-insured through Wausau Benefits and my family coverage was $60 a paycheck for our PPO plan, and that was a REGIONAL airline.

I wasn't referring to airlines. Other industries, professions, etc.

I expect this company to do better. I wonder if management has the SAME insurance plan and costs?

Surely not, but neither does your Congressman.