AA to hire in 2003!

[whizVFA201]

Our chief pilot said that AA plans to hire in 2003 and to have everbody (including my furloughed as*) back within the year.
Once the NMB declares us a single carrier with TWA they'll also recall the 209 guys who were furloughed out of order.
He also said our March loads are above what they predicted (he said loads...).
With UAL recalling a bunch of F/A's next month I think things are starting to turn around.
But we're also in contract talks and there are thoughts that we'll be used as "chips" by both sides.
Should be an interesting spring.
Whiz

 

[DIAMONDDD]

Dude, I hope you are right. BUT, where did you get your intel.? Are you one of the 209 or below that. I say again, Dude, I hope you are right.

 

[whizVFA201]

CAPT Kudwa spoke at a "town hall meeting" out on the west coast last week. Direct quotes.
I'm below that 209 but just below.

 

[ex nav]

rest of the story??

To add on to Herk's enlighting post:

-----
Recall Rumors

Q: Okay, I've heard this rumor from 3 different sources now. Will we be recalling pilots in March or April? The numbers I've heard are 50 to 200 and mostly from DFW. Is this true?

A: Sorry. No truth to the rumor. We have no room to train recalls at this point. We are in the process of training 450 B727 pilots on other equipment. We expect it will take until June or July to complete this.

----

So with Herk's math in public (good job) and a (optimistic) recall in July, hiring could start in 2003 for a class date in Jan 04.

Just to add my 2 cents...

 

[Mil-BushPilot]

Prior to Sep 11 wasn't AA hiring/ training 100+ a month? Even at 100/mo it would still take a year to retrain the furloughees though.

Mil Pilot

 

[madison2]

Mil pilot,
You assume that they didn't cut the training department back? I know they have been reduced in numbers, by how much who knows?

 

[SF3CA]

Another monkey wrench in this problem is that there are about 300-400 Eagle pilots, most with sen #'s that are senior to the AA and TWA furloughed pilots. Nobody knows if they are going to recall the AA pilots in true seniority order, which means the Eagle pilots first, or if they are going to recall everyone that was on property first. The Flow thru agreement says that when a pilots transfers to AA, they will be offered one out of every two new hire positions. We have been hearing that ALPA's interpertation of that is that 1/2 is a floor not a ceiling therefore all the new hire classes in the near furture could be all Eagle pilots (untill we run out of jet captains waiting to flow).

Another thing: The AA pilots that flowed back have no seat lock at Eagle. However I don't think that AMR would train them just to see them go back to AA in a few months. AMR is going to get their money out of these guys. I think they will be at Eagle for at least 14 months or more. JMO

good luck,

SF3CA

 

[whizVFA201]

Herk/Ex Nav:
Good posts... But remeber where you got that info: "Ask and Avoid".
Also AA can train as many pilots as they want. They were training 100 new hires a month, along with all the recurrent, upgrade and transition folks before our enlightened Arab brothers paid us a visit. The school house was burning the midnight oil. Saying they can only train 50 a month is a stretch. And even if they cut the training department all they need to do is recall the folks they let go. I don't think the sim instructor job market phone is rininging off the hook so it shouldn't be too hard to recall.

And even though the integration deal reads like a Rubbick's Cube I thought that the TWABs can only be recalled to St. Louis for now and that AA furloughees recalled wouldn't be training in St. Louis.
Talking with some union guys recently it sounds like the furloughed group will be used by both sides during these negotiations as a big poker chip.
"We'd love to recall everybody if only the APA would do ______"
Or "Sure you can fly all the RJ's you want if you recall everybody and ___________"

So while things certainly look better than they did a couple of months ago, I'm expecting a long haul and hope to be pleasantly surprised if it's shorter. The fact that the recall rumors are beginning to fly are good; we could be at UAL where the rumors are going the other way, by the thousands.

Hope I get activated to Key West for a year,
Whiz
American furlough, patriot, organ donor

 

[PHX767]

The 50/month training flow is optimistic at best. Our systems instructors are not all going to be coming back to training. Their skill sets make them qualified for many other technical jobs, not just in training, and not just in aviation.

The APA furlough hotline mentioned the "208" a few times last week, and had me thinking WTF? Then I remembered we lost a guy in the 3/12 class. I still think they should refer to us as the "209" just out of respect for him.

 

[bayoubandit]

SF3CA

I had read some stuff from either APA or AA that said the Eagle flow throughs will not come over until all of the AA guys and gals who were on property are recalled. I don't if it is going to take AA hiring again for those with Eagle folks with AA numbers to flow through or not, but I imagine it would.

On another note, does anyone know how many flowbacks have actually been trained and are online?

Historically at AA, haven't the furloughs been held hostage for contract negotiations? That's how the whole B scale thing got started. It pretty much shows are fate. Let's hope it's different this time.

 

[whizVFA201]

Herk Bubba,

All good points but the point I was trying to make is that an airline can train as many people as they want/need. Period. At the height of the Fed Ex hiring a year or two ago they were sending folks to USAir sims in PA and other places because there wasn't room in MEM. Do all the math you want but it comes down to what the man wants to do. If they need folks they'll find a way to train them. They were going to send my FDX new hire class to UAL in Denver for our sims but we ended up in MEM on the grave yard sked. Got us acclimated for the line I guess.

Having said that, I also agree that it'll be awhile and that they'll probably do a gentlemanly (-1 sp?) pace of 50 or so. And throw in contract talks and you have a potential hostage situation.

You also right about the bottom line. I'd rather be on furlough longer and come back to a stronger company with a great contract than get recalled and have the threat of more trouble on the horizon. I'm currently sucking on the reserve tit for all it's worth so I can say that . For others that are out there selling burial insurance (no kidding...a UAL buddy on furlough), I hope it's shorter.

Whiz

 

[TWA Dude]

And even though the integration deal reads like a Rubbick's Cube I thought that the TWABs can only be recalled to St. Louis for now and that AA furloughees recalled wouldn't be training in St. Louis.

First of all, any ex-TWA recalls won't happen until well after single carrier status, in which ALL recalls will bid into system vacancies where ever they may be. In other words, ex-TWA recalls almost certainly won't be to STL since there aren't likely to be any vacancies here for a long while. For that reason and also for the necessity of training AA recalls in TWA op-specs there won't be any AA guys recalled to STL. However, Supplement CC does allow for any ex TWA pilots outside of the STL fence to bid back in and retain their relative seniority there.

Next, for those uninformed whizVFA201 chose to use the term "TWABs" to refer to ex TWA pilots, which stands for "TWA SCABS". Why he chose such an inflammatory, derogatory, ignorant, mean-spirited and irrelevant-to-this-discussion term I cannot fathom. To my knowledge there are no scab pilots at TWA as there's been no pilot strikes here in recent memory.

Well, whizVFA201, what say you?

 

[whizVFA201]

EX TWA Dude:

You're right ...no need to throw names around and I apologize if I offended you.

I won't even begin to discuss the issues with regards to our integration. You can start a thread if you'd like...and it'll be here after we're both dead.

Suffice it to say that no party will ever be happy with it. Maybe Rodney King can be the head of our union.

One big hAAppy fAAmily,
Whiz

 

[ex nav]

Amen to that

Being a furloughed new hire (& military retiree, now back on active duty for a while since my state won't give me unemployment) I am forever junior to most of the AA furloghees and all of the TWA furloughees. I just want one thing....my job back just as soon as possible. Anything else just doesn't matter.

In fact most of this bickering seems counterproductive but understandable. After 21+ years in the military I have learned that when people STOP complaining is when you really have to worry about them because it means that they have given up hope.

Well, I second Herks thoughts that we all need to get along for the best interest of the airline. Here's to a bright furture and to hoping we ALL get back to work soonest...

 

[mos-def]

quick question. as a guy hired after 4/10 is there the possibility that i can be recalled prior to the twa guys. for instance if the twa guys can only be hired into stl and aa is needs people outside of stl can i be recalled into the 'AA' system with twa guys still on furlough since stl will be 'maxed out'?

 

[DIAMONDDD]

Thanks Herc and Whiz for your understanding. When I read Whiz's "TWAB" statement, it kind of got to me a little but I let it go. I don't think that everyone involved always stops to think about what the other group is actually like. I, myself, am furloughed (the state of MO is currently paying me $250 per week to watch my two year old) and we are expecting another one in a few months. I came to work at TW 2 years ago. I went to work (loved every minute of it), tried to do a good job and have some laughs, and went home to my family. I didn't run for ALPA office and I wasn't all vocal at the meetings. In fact, I never had the opportunity to attend one. I think that unions are a necessary evil but I can see the down side to them too. I don't think that people should take what their union reps tell them as gospel. I am glad that AMR bought us and, considering my position, I think it has been fair for me. I really wouldn't ask for more.

Having said all of the above, it is kind of a dagger when I read posts that imply that since I chose TWA, I am now considered a SCAB or SCAB-LIKE. It is disheartening to think that, with my label as an ex-TWA guy, there will be people that will think less of me before they get to know me or fly with me. All I want to do is come back to work and have fun. People keep telling me that there is only a vocal minority that will harbor these feelings (on both sides) and I hope that is correct.

I look forward to meeting you fellas.

 

[SuperDavi8ator]

Hate to be a bubble buster here, but the one thing that most of these post disregard is that fact that APA is currently in the middle of Sec 6 negotiations. IMHO there will not be a TOTAL recall until a new contract is sign. AMR has a history of holding furloughees hostage as a bargaining tool. Has happened 3 times in the past and there is no reason to think things will be any different this time. Especially in the "Forced Manure" mode that we are operating in now.

After the NMB and the 200+ are returned because of the new list, a sign of future recalls and hiring will be a signed and ratified contract.

As far as holding hands, and singing Kum Bia Yah (sp?) with the "TWABS" (yes I do use that word but I prefer TWAliban”). Most of us think they are just reaping what they sow. I guess the term "Ski Nazi" is just a term of endearment?

 

[DIAMONDDD]

As far as holding hands, and singing Kum Bia Yah (sp?) with the "TWABS" (yes I do use that word but I prefer TWAliban”). Most of us think they are just reaping what they sow. I guess the term "Ski Nazi" is just a term of endearment?


This is kind of what I was talking about. It's a shame.

 

[717driver]

As an outsider looking in on these issues, I hope to God my airline
is never bought out by this scum.

What it is that gives you the right to judge and label someone just because your company decided to buy their company is beyond me.

What are these TWA guys (with families to feed, just like you) supposed to do?

Working and flying their airplanes hardly makes them scabs. If this isn't easy to understand, then some of you need to bone up on your history!

 

[PHX767]

DiamondDDD, TWA Dude, and others that I am not aware of,

You guys are not scabs, and some new airline guys without a lot of civilian experience do not realize the awful implications and emotion that that ugly term brings to mind.

There will always be a minority in every acquisition that will make the remainder appear ungrateful or unhappy. In my limited experience, these are the people with the most to lose - the real senior and the real junior.

It is human nature to try and get all you can out of a new arrangement. I really do understand former TWA pilots trying for date of hire. Our contract had language which said (and I paraphrase) "staple 'em all". We didn't. There are about 5,000 ways to figure out how to merge a seniority list. None of them will make everybody happy. This one surely won't either. Both sides had negotiators to try and get the best deal for their groups. That is a thankless job.

There will be bitterness and rancor for some time, long after we start flying together. The true professionals will leave predjudice and emotion out of the cockpit, just as we do now for members of other genders, sexual orientation, national origin, or color of skin.

I would have been happier if the acquisition had not taken place, but nobody asked me. I could have left the airline if I felt that strongly about it. I don't.

My bottom line is that it's a done deal and I cannot do anything about it. I am going to spend my energy trying to get back to work, and then get EVERYBODY back to work.

I am sure that the TWA roster contains about 90% great guys, 5% jerks, and 5% total flamers - just like our list.

It's time to quit whining over what might have been and look to the future of our great line.

AA pilots that used to work for TWA, welcome aboard.

 

[TWA Dude]

I went to sleep after posting last night and just now got back from the training center. Since the 717's are going away I'm displaced onto the dreaded MD80. I miss my wonderful air-conditioning already.

Whiz, since you apologized I accept.

Keep in mind my post mentioned nothing about the fairness or unfairness of the integration, but just my interpretation of what Supp CC actually entails. I frankly don't see any changes occuring to Supp CC so it's time to move on.

As far as SuperschmuckDavi8tor, he gets no respect from me. First of all, I've never used the term "Sky Nazi" here nor on the old Flightinfo boards nor PlaneBusiness nor Smilin' Jacks. It's an offensive term and I don't use it. Also keep in mind that the expression existed long before AA bought TWA.

Just so people know what kind of a person SuperDavi8tor is, I'm quoting from a personal-message he sent me with this little treatise on the term "TWAB".

SuperDavi8tor wrote me:
The term TWAB is more than an accurate characterization to what you and the rest of your ALPA brethren are trying to do, STEAL jobs that weren't yours in the first place. You weren't enough to get hired by American and now you think your seniority at a broken, run down airline should not only count towards your time at AA, but be used to displace people who were (qualified, experienced, lucky) enough to get hired here. You should be thanking your lucky stars (like you were the first few weeks after the announcement) instead of trying to grab what isn't and never was yours. Be honest with yourself at least, We know most of you were trying to build time just to get a shot at a real major in a few years. What do you think your chances of getting hired at any airline would have been after 9/11? Now every single one of you has it made. But you want more at the expense of others. So YES in the eyes of 90+ percent of us, TWAB=SCAB strike or no strike.

I wish no more discussion on the subject.

 

[DIAMONDDD]

Wow!

Really? Is this the way 90 percent of the AA pilots see it? Does this nice gentleman speak on behalf of everyone there (or just 90%) Wow. I guess some anger there. I'm not sure, is this what is called "an olive branch"?

 

[TWA Dude]

Re: Wow!

Diamonddd:

I don't believe for one instant that superdavi8tor represents 90% or even 9% of AA pilots. He just doesn't know how to keep his mouth shut. We all hope to see you back soon. BTW, I'm B717Flyer on Smilin' Jacks.

 

[F/O PeterNorth]

I say we all get a bunch of the AA and TWA F/A's together for a wrestling match...that should settle it. I'll be the judge.

Who cares what anybody feels or thinks or says "Fly the plane, land the plane, get off the plane, go home" a wise capt once told me. It's a job. Get over it. We're all paid very well to do something that a computer can probably do better. They got friggin' drones with Hellfires smoking guys in the sand. It's just a matter of time before we're the F/A's, only there in case Hal needs a bulb changed.

When some guy starts spouting off in the C/P about all this stuff I just tune him out and think of the upcoming layover and take a Vitamin E.

We're not the enemy; the company is and if we're not unified we're f*cked. Might as well keep my other job.

PN

 

[DIAMONDDD]

You know what surprises me the most out of all of this? It is the fact that so many posters here use "The Simpsons" characters for their icon. I thought that I was the only goofball that was a simpsons fan.

 

[bayoubandit]

What are you kidding! I got a Simpsons DVD box set last Christmas. Ah yes, many more years of the Simpsons. Great way to pass the time of furlough too.

 

[publisher]

blowhards

Just a few blowhards that think they have a God given right to a job and that should anyone else interfere with this right, they should be strung up and quartered publically.

 

[pilot141]

It's all in the details.....

Yes, most of the AA pilots are opposed to the TWA merger...because they think that it gives the TWA pilots too much.

Before anyone goes off and starts calling AA guys names, realize that they are trying to protect their jobs just like everyone else.

All of the guys at the bottom are subject to the whims of the union/company, and are looking at the following:

AMR buys a failing (bankrupt) company

AMR and TWA continue to hire....

Oops...something really bad happens.....

Time to get rid of guys....let's start at the bottom...hey! How many lists do we have?

Imagine being a guy who just left TWA because he got the dream AA job offer...what the hell do we do with you?

In a very tough job climate, AA guys are going to try to protect their jobs. If anyone can tell me that this is not a good thing, then he can run for the TWA Merger position.

Tempers flare, especially when jobs are lost and people are on the street. The guys at AA who are furloughed will say this:

I work for a company that is earning a lot of money (though not yet a profit), and have an expectation of a job, since I was hired by AA in the (summer, fall) of 2001. Also, all of these TWA people, who were working for a bankrupt airline, had no job expectations in 2002. They expected to be out of business.

Who now deserves the job?

The AA guy who got hired with a successful company in July?

Or a TWA guy who got hired at a failing carrier in 1996?

I'm open for suggestions: I just want to see what people think!

 

[DIAMONDDD]

What I think

You want to know what I think? Here is what I think. I think, that for me, personally, with two years at TWA before being furloughed, I still made out OK. I, personally, wouldn't expect anything better. I think I can keep an open mind and see how all of the "209" guys would be angry right now. I don't blame them. Heck, I could see the argument that the guys AFTER the 209 should be upset. I, personally, am not carrying a flag around that says "We got the shaft". I said in an earlier post, I just want to get back to work.
That being said, there are two sides to every story. Keep in mind, I am not arguing FOR any side here.
1. AMR did buy a bankrupt airline. They got a lot for what they paid. (So says some of the analysts) They were not allowed to just go in and write a check for it....they had to go through the court system and PROMISE to keep virtually all of the employees and PROMISE to make it a "Fair and Equitable" integration. Then the courts said, "Well, OK then". and the TWA labor groups said "OK then"
Then, when the keys are handed over, AMR basically said to the AMR union folks, "here, have fun but don't go nuts".
NOW the argument comes in the definition of "Fair and Equitable"
This is where all the fighting comes from. TWA has guys that think that being a 12 year captain and getting stapled behind a probationary pilot is not fair. American has guys that are probationary pilots that say that they chose to leave another job to come to American and have stabiltiy. I can see both sides of the argument.
2. Everyone is just trying to protect their own. Period. If anyone thought that the APA would say, "hey folks, lets be nice and help these guys out.....lets give them DOH" they would be nuts. AND, if anyone thinks that the TWA ALPA would just tell its members " Whew! we got bought by someone. Let's just take what they give us and be happy" they would still be nuts. We wouldn't expect that at all. It is just human nature. We wouldn't want these same people around during contract negotiations saying "Lets be nice and give the company this,or, Whew at least we still have jobs, lets take what they give us"

Let me say this again, so everyone understands. I am NOT carrying the flag for either side right now. I got what I totally expected out of the integration and I am OK with it, even though I am on furlough. BUT, what I do take exception with is that fact that, just because I was working for TWA, there are those that say I am less of a pilot or weren't as qualified or experienced and on and on and couldn't get hired by a real airline. OR they indicate that I am some sort of a SCAB because I worked for TWA. If anyone thinks that DAL/UAL/AMR only hire the most qualified folks and only take the cream of the crop, they are sadly mistaken. Out of ALL of the readers on this board, each will know of at LEAST (I presume) five people that got hired by one of the big three that was less qualified, experienced, yadda yadda. Using the argument that someone is somehow better, just going by who hired you is very innacurate, IMHO. Just because you were able to get 3 or 4 guard/regional buddies that work at one of the big three to write you LOR's does not make you more qualified. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, but it does not make you better. (When I say "you" I just mean anyone in general.)
I try not to take the other stuff personal, but this is what gets my goat.
Just remember, there are two sides to every argument. Which side of the fence you sit on determines which side of the argument you take. It is only human nature. That is why some are calling for a neutral third party to get involved but that won't happen either.
Just my opinion.

 

[Mr.Aviation]

Not-so-SuperDavi8tor.

SuperDavi8tor = Typical ex-military pilot who thinks the world owes him an airline job. Unfortunately that is who makes up 90% of the AA pilot group. The TWA guys are a great bunch and I feel bad that they had to be picked up by arguably the most ruthless pilot group in the industry. Good luck TWA...with AA you are going to need it!