AA seeks to cancel labor contracts

[ackattacker]

It's a free market not a fantasy world; companies aren't required to pay more than they need to in order to fill a position and employees are free to leave a job and take a better one that pays more and treats them better.

It is not even in the same ballpark as a free market. If it was a free market there would be no seniority system and pilots would be free to leave and get a better job you say. As it is you are not, we have the worst parts of a legacy union system combined with the worst parts of a free market system.

 

[AC560]

It is not even in the same ballpark as a free market. If it was a free market there would be no seniority system and pilots would be free to leave and get a better job you say. As it is you are not, we have the worst parts of a legacy union system combined with the worst parts of a free market system.

Was going to post something to the effect in response but Ackattacker got it.

:beer:

 

[fam62c]

It is not even in the same ballpark as a free market. If it was a free market there would be no seniority system and pilots would be free to leave and get a better job you say. As it is you are not, we have the worst parts of a legacy union system combined with the worst parts of a free market system.

It's still a free market, you just have to start over at the bottom but you are free to leave; nobody can force you to stay in a job you don't like. You are free to go fly corporate or whatever where there is no seniority system. With or without a seniority system an employer would be likely to put new-hires at the bottom of the pay scale........why would they not?

Things wouldn't look that much different without a seniority system except that there would be a lot of favoritism involved with promotions. Companies would love it because they could lay off the highest paid, most senior employees first and keep the more junior lower paid employees on. Seniority is not a perfect system but it would be tough to find a better system in a profession where, by design, we are all supposed to be doing exactly the same job in exactly the same way.

 

[Turtle21]

That's what happens when companies fail. At this point it doesn't really matter how AMR got to this point or who was responsible, the past can't be changed. Contractual "rights" aren't going to do you much good if the company liquidates.

If the employees at AMR want to keep their jobs they need to figure out how to get the best deal they can under the circumstances and be part of a successful reorganization. The other option would be to make it clear to the creditors that they will not work with the current management team and hope for a leadership change or an aquisition which may or may not result in a better deal. Either way, things are going to have to change.

You casually dismiss the transient and fleeting benefits of contractual rights... by propounding the benefits of bargaining for a... wait for it... a contract.

 

[AC560]

Companies would love it because they could lay off the highest paid, most senior employees first and keep the more junior lower paid employees on.

Most companies like highly trained professionals. If you are going to court do you want a very senior and highly experienced lawyer or somebody just out of law school?

Either your skills have value or they don't it has nothing to do with what the company would like to do (which is simply to earn money for the share holders). This is why compensation for corporate flying and good corporations pays very well. Those organizations value the skills of the pilots flying and compensate accordingly.

 

[fam62c]

Most companies like highly trained professionals. If you are going to court do you want a very senior and highly experienced lawyer or somebody just out of law school?

Either your skills have value or they don't it has nothing to do with what the company would like to do (which is simply to earn money for the share holders). This is why compensation for corporate flying and good corporations pays very well. Those organizations value the skills of the pilots flying and compensate accordingly.

It's not like an attorney, the public doesn't care who is flying the plane (corporate flight departments might care more), they just want the cheapest ticket. They don't care if the Captain has 3K hours or 30K hours. The company doesn't really care either, they operate under the theory that if it's legal it must be safe. As pilots most of us don't even care who is flying the plane. When it's time to commute home on that RJ or turboprop how many pilots ask the Captain for their resume before they get on the plane?

Your skills are worth what an employer will pay you for them and no more.

 

[fam62c]

You casually dismiss the transient and fleeting benefits of contractual rights... by propounding the benefits of bargaining for a... wait for it... a contract.

My point is that contractual rights have no value if the company that you have the contract with ceases to exist. The AMR pilots should try to get the best concessionary deal they can get but they are not in the driver's seat. I hope it all works out.

 

[shon7]

The new AMR CEO means business. Hes not kidding around.

 

[a320drivr]

The new AMR CEO means business. Hes not kidding around.

Get lost you mgmt wannabe

 

[shon7]

Get lost you mgmt wannabe

touched a sensitive nerve did we. or are you just one of those affirmative action sissies unable to deal with reality.

 

[Beetle007]

Most companies like highly trained professionals. If you are going to court do you want a very senior and highly experienced lawyer or somebody just out of law school?

Either your skills have value or they don't it has nothing to do with what the company would like to do (which is simply to earn money for the share holders). This is why compensation for corporate flying and good corporations pays very well. Those organizations value the skills of the pilots flying and compensate accordingly.

How is an airline supposed to hire and retain only the best pilots? Pilots at airlines are allowed to keep their job as long as they due the bare minimum. Would you advocate better pilots making more than average pilots and how would you implement such a system?

Jack Welch (prior CEO of GE) would fire the bottom 10% of managers every year. I know most pilots would not be happy if the airline fired the bottom 10% of pilots every year based on metrics such as fuel burn, on-time departures, sick calls, productivity etc.

The employement system of airlines has resulted in pilots being looked at as a commodity by management. One pilot is as good as any other pilot as long as they can fill the seat. Not saying this is good or bad....just what it is.

 

[flynvixen]

A company is comprised of people, some are leaders, others followers, when the leaders are incompetent and destroy the company, are the followers to shut up and watch their CONTRACTUAL rights disappear???

You fools need to learn that we live in a market based economy, do you pay your lawn guy more that what he is worth, when he says he will cut your lawn for $50 do you say oh no thats not enough let me pay you $150 and bring five of you vato friends and I will pay them the same, do you pay full price for your new car or do you try and get the price down, do pay full price for the home you want or do you try and get the price down ??? why should the company pay you more that you are worth, why should they not try and get you to work for less, you have priced yourselves out of work and now the market rate for pilots is what it is .......now get back to work and stop complaining......you pilots are famous for one thing.........complaining...we are all so tired of hearing about how unfair life is because the company wont pay you top dollar to sit home and run your yogurt shop.........

 

[EWR_FO]

You fools need to learn that we live in a market based economy, do you pay your lawn guy more that what he is worth, when he says he will cut your lawn for $50 do you say oh no thats not enough let me pay you $150 and bring five of you vato friends and I will pay them the same, do you pay full price for your new car or do you try and get the price down, do pay full price for the home you want or do you try and get the price down ??? why should the company pay you more that you are worth, why should they not try and get you to work for less, you have priced yourselves out of work and now the market rate for pilots is what it is .......now get back to work and stop complaining......you pilots are famous for one thing.........complaining...we are all so tired of hearing about how unfair life is because the company wont pay you top dollar to sit home and run your yogurt shop.........

I'm fine in a market-based economy if I can withhold my services at will, that is not the case so it isn't even close to market based.

 

[shon7]

I'm fine in a market-based economy if I can withhold my services at will, that is not the case so it isn't even close to market based.

No ones stopping you from witholding your services.

 

[ackattacker]

Things wouldn't look that much different without a seniority system except that there would be a lot of favoritism involved with promotions. Companies would love it because they could lay off the highest paid, most senior employees first and keep the more junior lower paid employees on. Seniority is not a perfect system but it would be tough to find a better system in a profession where, by design, we are all supposed to be doing exactly the same job in exactly the same way.

No, they couldn't, because without a seniority system the senior employees wouldn't make any more money than the junior employees, you would all get paid the same to do the same job. The reason airlines get away with paying poverty wages is because of the *promise* of higher wages in the future. If that promise was taken away, you would have to pay a lot more right now or nobody would work for you. And if you pay less than industry standard everyone would quit and go work somewhere else.