AA Pilot Union Article

[OUPilot01]

http://www.star-telegram.com/business/story/1250570.html


In the 25+ years I have lived in the DFW area these are the type of slanted articles the papers always publish. No wonder it is always such an uphill battle to receive any public sentiment. It seems that management always wins the PR battle. I understand the economy is in the tank but whenever negotiation time comes it is always something 9-11, high gas prices, economy ect... and the media always has to qoute somewhere that pilots make over $130,000. : (

 

[Raoul Duke]

its very hard to win the pr war when asking for a 50% pay increse given the current situation everyone is facing. I don't know the solution but it is ugly. There is no good way to get a big increase in any contracts right now because no one is making $$$ and passengers have reduced travel so much

 

[satpak77]

what is the average AA pay, say for 5 year Captain and 10 yr FO?

 

[80drvr]

what is the average AA pay, say for 5 year Captain and 10 yr FO?

There are no 5 year Captains at AA - junior captain is 17 years (1992 hire). 10 year FO average pay would be about 91,980.

 

[aa73]

There is no good way to get a big increase in any contracts right now because no one is making $$$ and passengers have reduced travel so much

i guess there is also no good way to get executive bonuses right now because no one is making $$$ and passengers have reduced travel so much.... that what you're trying to say?

3 years of bonuses in a row = a bunch of $$$ they could have shared with the unions who took big pay cuts to keep their carefully manicured a$$es out of BK. So b.s, they can easily afford some pay raises for us. They just don't want to. If the PR folks and the media can't understand that, why do we waste our time with them. They will eventually understand when their flights have some kind of emergency and Sully types just ain't up there in the cockpit anymore because the job ain't worth it..... then it'll hit home real hard.

 

[OUPilot01]

That is what kills me every week the paper runs articles but although they are always quick to point out pilot pay, they always fail to mention the bonuses the executives give themselves. IMHO we as pilots are badly losing the PR war. It is an area that I wish we would all pay more attention to. It seems that we badly underestimate public perception while management does a great job of spinning it in their favor.

 

[satpak77]

There are no 5 year Captains at AA - junior captain is 17 years (1992 hire). 10 year FO average pay would be about 91,980.

Junior capt is 17 yrs? Jeez. Good luck to the AA guys

 

[pipe]

its very hard to win the pr war when asking for a 50% pay increse given the current situation everyone is facing. I don't know the solution but it is ugly. There is no good way to get a big increase in any contracts right now because no one is making $$$ and passengers have reduced travel so much

The PR war doesn't matter. The readers of the Dallas paper don't matter. The war is with Arpey. It's like arguing a call with the home plate umpire -- if you convince the fans that it was wrong you still lost. If you convince the ump he was wrong, but all the fans disagree - YOU WIN.

PIPE

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

Mitch Schnurmen over the years has always, with one exception taken mgmts stance over labor. That was after Carty and the gangs little scam in 2003. What you have to remember is texas is a very anti-union, conservative state like most of the south. They have been convinced that $10-12 hr is great money, and "unions bad, if you don't like it quit". Wonderful brainwashing by the righties. Btw, the startlegram is considered the "liberal" paper in the area vs the dallas morning news.

 

[aa73]

Junior capt is 17 yrs? Jeez. Good luck to the AA guys

It has to do with 3 factors:

1. "Up or out" policy, which states that whenever someone Jr to you upgrades in your base, you have a certain amount of time to do so as well. This forces EVERY F/O to upgrade when it is time, which creates a long upgrade (as opposed to senior F/Os passing it up and CA upgrades go way junior, a la CAL.) As far as I know, we are the only airline to do this.

2. Stagnation due to a very senior pilot group (a la USAirways.) We haven't hired since 2001 and still have some 1800 on furlough.

3. The fact that we had a furlough between 1993 and 1998, so the CA upgrade will instantly reduce by 5 years when the first '98 hire upgrades. Wow, that'll bring it back down to 12 year upgrade, stop the presses!

 

[Falconjet]

Wow, how gentle of you to not even mention the age change.

I'd say you are at least one factor short.

FJ

 

[tomgoodman]

Why this policy?

1. "Up or out" policy, which states that whenever someone Jr to you upgrades in your base, you have a certain amount of time to do so as well. This forces EVERY F/O to upgrade when it is time, which creates a long upgrade (as opposed to senior F/Os passing it up and CA upgrades go way junior, a la CAL.) As far as I know, we are the only airline to do this.

Very interesting. There must be some reason, other than tradition, for this policy. Does it save on training costs? Does APA support it? Seems like the price would be a lot of unhappy pilots, unable to make their own choices on QOL.

 

[satpak77]

I would be interested to see comments how the old "astronaut physical" mindset of pilot hiring, ala the 1980's, has affected things. This is not a strike against the pilots themselves, but directed towards the corporate mindset that existed at American back then.

I recall a link-chart or family tree asking if your grand-dads next door neighbor had high blood pressure.

One thing I always wondered about was I believe (and I could be 100% wrong) AA "targeted" new hires to all be like 30 yrs old, thus ensuring that they would get 25-30 yrs of life out of them. I may have even read this in some business book on the shelf at Barnes and Noble. ANYWAY, supposedly this came back to bite AA in the azz when they all hit retirement at the same time.

The above is just something I heard/read about, but anyone else have any comments?

 

[aa73]

Very interesting. There must be some reason, other than tradition, for this policy. Does it save on training costs? Does APA support it? Seems like the price would be a lot of unhappy pilots, unable to make their own choices on QOL.

Actually, it is AA's way of getting out of age discrimination. By only hiring pilots able to upgrade to CA, they manage to eliminate the factor of hiring pilots only able to serve a relatively short time (i.e. someone in their mid 50s.) The prerequisite of that is that the pilot must upgrade to CA when their time comes. Clever loophole, but we and the APA never liked it. We were just never willing to give up some other major work rule to get rid of it, to date. I would LOVE to see it go away.

Yes - forgot to mention age 65 as one of the reasons of stagnation, but I figured most of you already knew that.

The astronaut physical is LONG gone, thank goodness. Last time we hired, the medical portion was a formality, nothing more.

 

[Freight Dog]

Instead of seeking "pay raises" APA should replace the words pay raises with "pay restoration" adjusted for CPI.

Same thing, different verbage...

 

[AAflyer]

Instead of seeking "pay raises" APA should replace the words pay raises with "pay restoration" adjusted for CPI.

Same thing, different verbage...

Glad you caught it, actually APA does call it pay restoration. Other media outlets and even a pilot in this thread still call it a raise.. Considering these are 1992 contract wages, IT IS PAY RESTORATION.

Cheers,

AAflyer

 

[TheCheat]

They will eventually understand when their flights have some kind of emergency and Sully types just ain't up there in the cockpit anymore because the job ain't worth it..... then it'll hit home real hard.

What? I though AA only hires the highest time, most experienced pilots. Have they ever hired anyone without PIC turbine?

 

[aa73]

What's "PIC turbine?"

 

[satpak77]

What? I though AA only hires the highest time, most experienced pilots. Have they ever hired anyone without PIC turbine?

I am 99.8% sure they hired "back in the day" some guys with zero turbine, nada. I think circa the MD-80 purchase, mid-80's

 

[AA717driver]

Virtually all newspapers in the large markets are owned by one of a handful of media conglomerates.

The business pages of these newspapers are anything but liberal--they reflect the infatuation with the "Senior Management Oligarchy" that, until the Wall St. debacle, ran the country.

Articles like this might as well have been printed in Centerport (and my well have) and faxed over to the paper.

APA's demands are reflective of the fact that, during good times, management can drag out negotiations indefinitely, knowing that there's nothing (especially in APA's case) the union can do to exert pressure and speed things up. The RLA is weighted totally in management's favor these days.

All AMR had to do was wait until the mini-rally was over and now they cry poor. Sorry, FUPM.

Some pilot group has to stand up and declare that our worth is not elastic. Management has declared that THEY are worth it--why is it wrong for those of us who make the machine work to make the same claim?

Those who started the airline unions faced violence, jail and unemployment because of their actions. Why should we be afraid of a newspaper article?

TC