AA Pilot Busted for Impersonating Cop

[ATRCA]

Yeah, unless that Post Office is in the airport.

 

[EMB Skillz]

I once flew with a captain who was an FFDO. He was proud of his ability to get the law enforcement discount at restaraunts with his FFDO creds.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Everybody says it is a great program but nobody can point out any support you guys are given as a FFDO. Who is the guy in your corner when there is a shooting, problem, mistake?

 

[satpak77]

I don't think you are quite accurate here. You are an FFDO after you have been sworn in. It has nothing to do with wether or not you are transporting a weapon. You're a pilot even when you are not in an airplane. An FFDO not at work has no law enforcement rights or weapons rights that have not been granted to him by the program but nontheless he is still an FFDO, which BTW is a federal law enforcement designation.

The weapon and the cockpit are not required to call yourself an FFDO, just like a PO traveling outside their home jurisdiction is still a PO. Many PO's have fairly restricted rights outside there home jurisdiction, the same applies here.

Hey don't kill the messenger, its straight from the TSA site. Repeat after me:

FFDOs will be Federal law enforcement officers only for the limited purposes of carrying firearms and using force to defend the flight deck of an aircraft from air piracy or criminal violence including lethal force.

FFDOs will not be not granted or authorized to exercise other law enforcement powers such as the power to make arrests or seek or execute warrants for arrest or seizure of evidence or to otherwise act as FFDOs outside aircraft flight decks

any problems you have interpreting that or heartburn it gives you, call TSA, not me.

flashing your FFDO creds to get out of a ticket could be interpreted as "acting as" an FFDO, or trying to.

It is what it is.

 

[satpak77]

Yeah, unless that Post Office is in the airport.

good point, something the lawyers at FAA and DOJ can argue over.


Post Offices in the new A-380 also fall under that gray area!

by the way, not trying to start an argument here, you have good points. However as you can see I have some of my own interpretations of the FFDO program.

take care

 

[ExpWayVis31]

If you are transporting your weapon to or from work and you are pulled over by local law enforcement for a traffic infraction you are required to identify your self as a "Federal Law Enforcement Officer and that you are transporting a weapon"

If you are NOT transporting your weapon...well that is a gray area...but I do know that a PBA card from one of NY's Finest works wonders.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=\Nation\archive\200402\NAT20040202b.html

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/1066671/posts

Seems like article after article about how TSA is not supporting the program. These are the people you are going to trust in some kind of problem?

 

[Flyerjosh]

Everybody says it is a great program but nobody can point out any support you guys are given as a FFDO. Who is the guy in your corner when there is a shooting, problem, mistake?

I've can't attest to mistakes or shootings, but I do know first hand how quickly support can come for FFDOs. I've had several issues resolved regarding jumpseating and security clearing very promptly (I went through FFDO training when the program was relatively new).

One morning departing an airport in ND as a jumpseater, there were some questions from the captain and station agents regarding whether FFDOs were permitted to jumpseat and under what circumstances (checked bags or carry on). Essentially I was going to be left behind at the captains request (and one that I was willing to abide by). I asked the captain if he would allow me onboard if he was contacted by his company with instructions/clarification, to which he replied yes. I whipped out the 800 number, and explained my situation. Within 3 minutes, the captain had received a phone call on his cell from dispatch, an ACARs message, and the station was called by their company dispatch. I was quite impressed considering it was about 530am Eastern.

That's just one example, but I can attest to the fact that support has always been prompt when I've requested it. In addition the amount of information that is provided to FFDOs on a regular basis is quite impressive.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

That's just one example, but I can attest to the fact that support has always been prompt when I've requested it. In addition the amount of information that is provided to FFDOs on a regular basis is quite impressive.

I am more worried about the support in case of a incident and training. What about the guy who loses his gun. Accidental shooting.

What if this guy actually told the officer all the correct information but it was a personal conflict with an asshole cop. Who is going to bat for the FFDO?

Here is a good article
http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel070203.asp

 

[ExpWayVis31]

an asshole cop.

We don't have any of those here in NY

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Top 10 things NOT to say to a cop who pulls you over

1. I cant reach my license unless you hold my beer

2. I only had one officer, Mr. Keg.

3. Aren't you one of the Village People?

4. You must've been doin about 125 mph to keep up with me! good job!

5. You'll never get those cuffs on me, you pu$sy.

6. I thought you had to be in relatively good physical condition to be a police officer

7. Didn't I see you get your ass kicked on COPS last week?

8. You're not gonna check the trunk are you?

9. Is it true that people become cops because they are too dumb to work at McDonalds?

10. I'm surprised you pulled me over, Dunkin Donuts is having a 3-for-1 special.

 

[lowecur]

Was he impersonating a male or female cop, and was this in New Orleans?

imp:

Newly discovered ring around Uranus is blue

 

[Flyerjosh]

I am more worried about the support in case of a incident and training. What about the guy who loses his gun. Accidental shooting.

What if this guy actually told the officer all the correct information but it was a personal conflict with an asshole cop. Who is going to bat for the FFDO?

Here is a good article
http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel070203.asp

I suppose that it all comes down to the circumstances of the shooting. Like any group of law enforcement officers out there, an FFDO that draws and fires, needs to be able to justify the use of force.

I can tell you one thing though- if I'm on the flight deck and you come through the door without me knowing it, you're gonna get shot. Repeatedly. Until you're laying on the floor. If I happen to hit the person in row 1, it sucks, but I'm prepared to defend the aircraft.

As for an incident, there hasn't been one yet, which says something about the program. In the event that an FFDO ever does discharge a weapon, I'm sure there will be a very thorough investigation. I have full faith in the program because I feel that if I ever fired legitimately, the weight of the public will carry me through. In addition I have the weight of the law on my side as well. (FFDO's that act within the jursidiction and scope of their SOP's are protected against liability by federal statute. Neither their employer or the public can take action against them as long as they were not negligent)

There are THOUSANDS of FFDOs that have been through the program and are carrying on a daily basis. Despite what the article might have said, I've seen nothing but support from the TSA and the hoops that you have to jump through to go to training aren't as bad as everybody makes them out to be. The hardest part was getting to and from NM.

Why don't you go and find an article about the program that isn't 3 years old. A LOT has changed since that article was written. For one, the program is now administered by the Federal Air Marshal Service (as opposed to being a separate entity within the TSA). As such there is much better administrative support and organization. The program runs much more efficiently and smoother than the first few classes. FLETC, is capable of handling many more than the "48" FFDOs per class that the article quotes, and additional capacity is added as needed. It's a lot more organized too in regards to the procedures, reporting, support, and processes that FFDO's follow and have available.

Rather than bash the program as an outsider, why not take the time to learn about it from some people who actually participate. Or even better, go out and take the training yourself. You might even learn a thing or two about aviation security (I know I did).

 

[FR8mastr]

Hey don't kill the messenger, its straight from the TSA site. Repeat after me:

FFDOs will be Federal law enforcement officers only for the limited purposes of carrying firearms and using force to defend the flight deck of an aircraft from air piracy or criminal violence including lethal force.

FFDOs will not be not granted or authorized to exercise other law enforcement powers such as the power to make arrests or seek or execute warrants for arrest or seizure of evidence or to otherwise act as FFDOs outside aircraft flight decks

any problems you have interpreting that or heartburn it gives you, call TSA, not me.

flashing your FFDO creds to get out of a ticket could be interpreted as "acting as" an FFDO, or trying to.

It is what it is.

I think you may not be understanding this correctly. what the above is saying is an FFDO can not stop a bag snatcher in the airport, or anywhere else for that matter, and flash the creds and say "its ok I'm a federal officer"

Telling a cop if pulled over you have a gun and why is required. That is not impersonating a federal officer, FFDO's are federal officers, with no jurisdiction outside the cockpit.

 

[FN FAL]

As far as "joe blow beat cop sauntering into the federal building" usually that is not what happens anyway. Most matters which need investigation follow-up discovered by the Patrol section ("beat cop") are referred to that departments CID/Detective section, which typically has liasion with FBI, DEA, etc in that town. In simplistic terms...

...duh, you think?

 

[FN FAL]

72 hours without charges? Good luck in real life but I think I did see that once on hill street blues.

Yea, it's true. 72 hours...you can be held, then released. No charges filed.

 

[FN FAL]

I read some freaky article recently about people who impersonate cops and rape/kill - it was very scary. It said that if you are a woman getting stopped in an isolated area to slow down and put your hazards on and call 911 from a cell to see if the dispatcher knows of a cruiser trying to pull over someone with your plates. That, or drive to a populated area. Crazy you have to worry about crap like this.

That's only a federal crime if you break federal law.

 

[FN FAL]

Pretending to be a law enforcement officer. That is what this thread is about.

That's funny, I thought the thread was about state v. federal authority.

What if the state had a warrant for this guy's arrest in another crime, a state crime that would have netted the subject the death penalty?

Do you think the state would have given up the state's prisoner to the feds over some ID card faux pas, just cause the patrolman skee-dadled over to the federal building with his police report before the chief woke up and had his first cup of coffee?

The governor would have gave the local office of the FBI the finger...and a copy of the R.O.'s police report and all the federal evidence for future reference, should the subject survived his execution.

 

[skiandsurf]

I am more worried about the support in case of a incident and training. What about the guy who loses his gun. Accidental shooting.

First let me start by saying that I think 90% of all cops are a**holes. The other 10% are striving to be a**holes.

In So Cal they had a cop shoot himself while cleaning his weapon....he died. They also had a cop shoot either himself or another cop while at the range. Not sure of details or condition. This makes me feel real safe.....NOT.

If an FFDO is only to protect the cockpit, why did the Federal Air Marshall shoot and kill the guy on the jetway? Is that part of the FAMs jurisdiction?

 

[satpak77]

If an FFDO is only to protect the cockpit, why did the Federal Air Marshall shoot and kill the guy on the jetway? Is that part of the FAMs jurisdiction?

the guy killed on the jetway posed (as interpreted by the Air Marshal) a threat to the Air Marshal's life, based on his behaviors and refusal to comply with demands.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

Well I have probably flown with 15 FFDO's. Only one actually carried.
ss

I doubt your accuracy, but neither of us have a way to verify, so a DID SO! -DID NOT!, exchange is pointless.
If true, I can only hope that the last thought in those pathetic assh*les minds as their throats are cut is, "Aw shucks! If I hadn't been so f*ckin' LAZY, I might have saved MY life and the lives of a few thousand OTHER people!"
I hope they use the RFID chip to find out how many posers are out there.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

Well I have probably flown with 15 FFDO's. Only one actually carried.
ss

If you know they bypassed security with their creds and weren't carrying, TURN THEM IN!

 

[FN FAL]

Well I am sure your experience with Law & Order and Andie Griffith are far superior to my years as an actual police officer. 72 hours without charges? Good luck in real life but I think I did see that once on hill street blues.

I am not trying to tell you what happened in this case, just telling it like it was in mine.

OK simple enough question, did the local police officer arrest the airline pilot for a federal crime at the scene of the traffic stop?

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
News releases are available at www.usdoj.gov/usao/ks/

Contact: Jim Cross
Phone: (316) 269-6481
Fax: (316) 269-6420​

WEDNESDAY, April 5, 2006​

​

AIRLINE PILOT FROM WICHITA CHARGED

WITH IMPERSONATING A FEDERAL AIR MARSHAL​

WICHITA, KAN. – An American Airlines pilot who lives in Wichita has been indicted on charges of impersonating a Federal Air Marshal and making a false statement to a federal investigator.​

Peter V. Austin, 42, was indicted Tuesday by a grand jury meeting in Wichita. According to the indictment, the crime occurred March 5, 2006, in Sedgwick County, Kan., when Austin was stopped by Park City Police Officer R.W. Wolff.​

If convicted, Austin faces a maximum penalty of 3 years in federal prison and a fine up to $250,000 on the impersonation charge and a maximum penalty of 5 years in federal prison and a fine up to $250,000 on the charge of making a false statement to a federal investigator. The Transportation Security Administration investigated the case. Assistant U.S. Attorney Matt Treaster is prosecuting.​

​

​

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Yea, it's true. 72 hours...you can be held, then released. No charges filed.

You make such blanket statements. Actually the US government can hold a person indefinately depending on the situation. They are doing it right now. They held an american citizen for like 3 years and finally released him for a trial. Every state has different rules and every department has different practices.


Ski and surf

Every year there are pilots who screw up and do stupid things. We had a guy show up hi on coke. Looks like a sky west guy just showed up drunk. Two pinnacle crewmembers acted so bad that it is part of our CRM class. It is too bad you think this way. There are bad apples all over.

I will now leave this thread for FN FAL to finish because he knows all. Good luck.

 

[Phaedrus]

skiandsurf: First, let me start by saying I hope you're just young and ignorant. Wait. By your profile, that is doubtful. Let me just say I pity you.

 

[satpak77]

OK simple enough question, did the local police officer arrest the airline pilot for a federal crime at the scene of the traffic stop?

You seem to be hung up on the "local officer enforcing federal law" theme.

Kansas Criminal Code, section 21-3110 (10) defines law enforcement officer as

(10) "Law enforcement officer" means:
(a) Any person who by virtue of such person's office or public employment is vested by law with a duty to maintain public order or to make arrests for crimes, whether that duty extends to all crimes or is limited to specific crimes;

This person was likely arrest for Impersonation of a Law Enforcement Officer (a state charge) however the prosecutor likely referred it for Federal Prosecution since he claimed to be an Air Marshal and the federal penalties are much greater. State prosecution was likely declined in lieu of federal prosecution.

"Federal Air Marshal" fullfills the state of Kansas "law enforcement officer" definition. As such, the police officer made a legal arrest for a state charge.

This subject was (based on reading the news article) later released and at some point federal investigators became involved and pursued a federal indictment for impersonating an Air Marshal.

By the way, "False impersonation" is a misdemeanor under State of Kansas law (21-3824 is the statute)

 

[Blucher]

SkiandSurf, although I don't agree with what you said, your delivery was perfect and I must admit I laughed my ass off. I'm sure we've all run into those cops who clearly became cops because they were bullied in school, or they are ugly women or short men and they're just out to get back at the world that, in their mind, has wronged them somehow. Big deal, I've flown with captains like that too. However, there are a lot of good cops out there who are literally risking their lives everyday for the sake of trying to hold our twisted society together and keep us from killing one another. Hopefully someday you'll meet some good cops and your thinking will change.

-Blucher

 

[Blucher]

"By the way, "False impersonation" is a misdemeanor under State of Kansas law (21-3824 is the statute)"-satpak77

Satpak77, that's a good point, and I'm glad you brought it up for all those "Riddle Rats" that are probably hooked on this board. For all you kids out there trying to buy beer with that fake ID you've got, that is the charge you will be charged with if you are caught.

-Blucher

 

[Uppercrust]

If you know they bypassed security with their creds and weren't carrying, TURN THEM IN!

Wow! Go after them and screw them hard. It's nice guys like you that make this job so fun. Why not talk to them? Better yet, mind your own business. What a thought.

 

[Falconjet]

Ladies and Gentlemen: We don't know that the guy was an FFDO. The report said FAM, and of course they probably meant FFDO, but who knows.

What I do know is that we shouldn't be discussing either FAM or FFDO procedures/policy on a public forum.

Now if you want to bash cops or argue about federal vs local jurisdiction by all means have at it.

But please remember that the bad guys read these boards too.

Thanks.

FJ