AA Pilot Busted for Impersonating Cop

[Flyerjosh]

Pretending to be a law enforcement officer. That is what this thread is about.

Um no. Contrary to your belief an FFDO IS a law enforcement officer. Since you don't know what the person that the article is about actually did, it's dangerous to make assumptions. Perhaps he wasn't even an FFDO and figured that he might try and "sneak" through security by posing as one.

I've been pulled over while carrying my weapon. (I'll be the first to admit that I was in a hurry to get home at 3am after a very long day). When stopped by the officer, I didn't "pose" as a federal officer, but simply stated that I had a weapon in the vehicle and would happily show him my credentials, after which he asked me to step out, and provide him with some ID. We chatted for about 5 minutes, he gave me a warning, and I was on my way.

I doubt that there are any cops out there that haven't heard about armed pilots. It's had so much media attention, that pretty much everybody knows. Besides, if there is an issue about the identity of an FFDO, it can be resolved VERY QUICKLY by calling up the Transporation Security Operations Center.

 

[MDPilot]

Pretending to be a law enforcement officer. That is what this thread is about.

Funny, my FFDO creds say "XXXX XXXXXX who is deputized, in accordance with 49 USC section 44921(d), as a Federal Law Enforcement Officer." I submit that you are entirely wrong.

 

[IronWalt]

You know, the BOTTOM LINE in all of this is:

Tis best to be honest in your dealings. Especially when dealing with law enforcement people. They are trained to detect horse******************** and often do.

 

[satpak77]

http://www.tsa.gov/public/interapp/editorial/editorial_multi_image_with_table_0211.xml

http://www.alpa.org/Default.aspx?tabid=233

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/second_amendment/0409/

(NOTE: all are public articles widely available on the internet, to include TSA's own website)

(From TSA): FFDOs will be Federal law enforcement officers only for the limited purposes of carrying firearms and using force to defend the flight deck of an aircraft from air piracy or criminal violence including lethal force.

FFDOs loose their legal status as law enforcement outside of the cockpit/aviation security context. Driving down main street USA in the minivan you do not meet the "law enforcement officer" status per TSA.

Outside of the cockpit door, you are not an FFDO, inside the cockpit door, you are.

As far as the AA pilot, whatever he said was likely captured on car camera and audio mike. "I am an Air Marshal" is clear cut a false statement. "I am an FFDO" is something else.

"I have a weapon in the car, since I am coming from work and I am commisioned as an FFDO due to my job as an airline pilot" is the best answer

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Secret, perhaps I should couch my answer in another, more informative, way.

You said that you have not attended the program, then you proceeded to analyze the problems with said program. You questioned the motivation to participate, FFDO proficiency, standard operating procedures, and indemnification from FFDO action.

I guess I don't understand how someone admitedly unfamiliar with the program, aside from anectdotal conversations with a few FFDOs, can opine with authority on the shortcomings of the program.

Thus, I inferred that you don't know what you are talking about, opinion or not. I was perhaps a bit short with you. Thus, this explanation is more involved.

By the way, I'm speaking as a FI member, not a Mod, so you may argue with me with impunity. Heck, everybody else does!

Well I have probably flown with 15 FFDO's. Only one actually carried. The company I am with use to support people who wanted to go and actually gave them paid time off. That changed. So we actually have a lot on property. He was the only one who said he trained frequently. The others said the only time they shot was at the 6 month training and that was because that was the only time they got ammo paid for. Three of the guys said they did it just to get thru security without taking their shoes off. The rest said it is too much of a pain because they go out of the country too often. Out of 15 I have seen one qualified FFDO. And I was unhappy with him because he had one of the stickers. I actually asked him about FFDO before he told me he was one. Is that safe?

As a normal person I find 1 out of 15 scarry. As a person who delt with firearms as a professional I think it is a disgrace. And I blame the program for this. Where is the structure? Where is the oversight?

Now you tell me how it is good. The only thing you have told me is that I am wrong. you have not given any evidence.

ss

 

[ATRCA]

That case is a mental health evaluation and not detained without cause. I know it happends but not at my level. And I had lots of people hand me business cards but they were usually telling me they were a snitch for said officer. If I did not know about the FFDO program and a pilot showed it to me saying he was a federal law enforcement officer for the TSA or DOT or something he is breaking the law and will go to jail.

I am not a FFDO but talked with lots of guys who have gone through the program. The program is a red headed step child that was rushed through without thought of how it was going to be implemented. First you have to take your own time off. While I am sure the training is top notch I worry about the proficiency. As an officer I trained monthly with department amunition. Most people I have talked to only got it so they could bypass security and don't even carry their weapon. That worries me about their dedication to the program. Plus I can think of one trip in the last year I could have taken it on with all the restrictions on international travel. All that and I have talked to captains who said they would only take FFDO's from their own airline which would restrict my getting to work. Finally, who do you think would back you up in the case you had to actually shoot someone. People like FN FAL would rake you over the coals saying you were some wild cowboy. The media would crusify you. Your company? Now way. Your government? Yea right. Maybe your union if you are lucky to have a good one. You will be hung out to dry.

Monthly shooting at the local PD? Sounds like you did that on your own time. Most local PD's do not require monthly quals. and you know that. The FFDO program requires 6 month quals and that is modest I would guess, but most local PO's are hardly marksman.

Also, denying a jumpseater because of their participation in the FFDO program will get you in much hot water. A quick read of the founding documents will clear that up for you.

 

[Lucky Strike]

If I did not know about the FFDO program and a pilot showed it to me saying he was a federal law enforcement officer for the TSA or DOT or something he is breaking the law and will go to jail.

An FFDO is a law enforcement officer. Your jurisdiction stops at the cockpit door. Just because your traveling in your vehicle ...you are still an FFDO...you're just out of your jurisdiction. You are required to identify yourself if stopped by law enforcement and admit the fact that you have a weapon. Obviously, the AA pilot did something wrong, or he wouldn't be in hot water...but don't bad-mouth the FFDO program because of it. Apples and oranges.

 

[EMB Skillz]

Pretending to be a law enforcement officer. That is what this thread is about.

Do you believe in "innocent until proven guilty"?

Did you take bribes or beat suspects in custody?

Did an FFDO take your lunch money away?

Were you really a cop?

Are you angry over childhood issues?

Please share, flightinfo users are great listeners and your identity will not be compromised.

 

[ATRCA]

http://www.tsa.gov/public/interapp/editorial/editorial_multi_image_with_table_0211.xml

http://www.alpa.org/Default.aspx?tabid=233

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/second_amendment/0409/

(NOTE: all are public articles widely available on the internet, to include TSA's own website)



FFDOs loose their legal status as law enforcement outside of the cockpit/aviation security context. Driving down main street USA in the minivan you do not meet the "law enforcement officer" status per TSA.

Outside of the cockpit door, you are not an FFDO, inside the cockpit door, you are.

As far as the AA pilot, whatever he said was likely captured on car camera and audio mike. "I am an Air Marshal" is clear cut a false statement. "I am an FFDO" is something else.

"I have a weapon in the car, since I am coming from work and I am commisioned as an FFDO due to my job as an airline pilot" is the best answer

I don't think you are quite accurate here. You are an FFDO after you have been sworn in. It has nothing to do with wether or not you are transporting a weapon. You're a pilot even when you are not in an airplane. An FFDO not at work has no law enforcement rights or weapons rights that have not been granted to him by the program but nontheless he is still an FFDO, which BTW is a federal law enforcement designation.

The weapon and the cockpit are not required to call yourself an FFDO, just like a PO traveling outside their home jurisdiction is still a PO. Many PO's have fairly restricted rights outside there home jurisdiction, the same applies here.

 

[satpak77]

If I did not know about the FFDO program and a pilot showed it to me saying he was a federal law enforcement officer for the TSA or DOT or something he is breaking the law and will go to jail.

An FFDO is a law enforcement officer. Your jurisdiction stops at the cockpit door. Just because your traveling in your vehicle ...you are still an FFDO...you're just out of your jurisdiction. You are required to identify yourself if stopped by law enforcement and admit the fact that you have a weapon. Obviously, the AA pilot did something wrong, or he wouldn't be in hot water...but don't bad-mouth the FFDO program because of it. Apples and oranges.

Going back to the TSA site, you are an FFDO only when the cockpit door is shut. You are not "an FFDO just because you are travelling in your vehicle"

In that case, you are an airline pilot who was issued FFDO creds. The title of the program is Federal FLIGHT DECK Officer, and it does not involved enforcement or investigation of anything, other than the defense of the cockpit/flight deck.

Those of you who carry your FFDO creds around thinking you are FFDO's while you shop at Home Depot are in error. At Home Depot you are Joe Blow citizen, and FFDO status does not provide for any special weapons carry ability above and beyond cockpit duties.

If you carry a weapon into the Post Office, and think your FFDO creds will waiver the "no guns in US Govt buildings" rule, you are wrong.

 

[ATRCA]

Yeah, unless that Post Office is in the airport.

 

[EMB Skillz]

I once flew with a captain who was an FFDO. He was proud of his ability to get the law enforcement discount at restaraunts with his FFDO creds.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Everybody says it is a great program but nobody can point out any support you guys are given as a FFDO. Who is the guy in your corner when there is a shooting, problem, mistake?

 

[satpak77]

I don't think you are quite accurate here. You are an FFDO after you have been sworn in. It has nothing to do with wether or not you are transporting a weapon. You're a pilot even when you are not in an airplane. An FFDO not at work has no law enforcement rights or weapons rights that have not been granted to him by the program but nontheless he is still an FFDO, which BTW is a federal law enforcement designation.

The weapon and the cockpit are not required to call yourself an FFDO, just like a PO traveling outside their home jurisdiction is still a PO. Many PO's have fairly restricted rights outside there home jurisdiction, the same applies here.

Hey don't kill the messenger, its straight from the TSA site. Repeat after me:

FFDOs will be Federal law enforcement officers only for the limited purposes of carrying firearms and using force to defend the flight deck of an aircraft from air piracy or criminal violence including lethal force.

FFDOs will not be not granted or authorized to exercise other law enforcement powers such as the power to make arrests or seek or execute warrants for arrest or seizure of evidence or to otherwise act as FFDOs outside aircraft flight decks

any problems you have interpreting that or heartburn it gives you, call TSA, not me.

flashing your FFDO creds to get out of a ticket could be interpreted as "acting as" an FFDO, or trying to.

It is what it is.

 

[satpak77]

Yeah, unless that Post Office is in the airport.

good point, something the lawyers at FAA and DOJ can argue over.


Post Offices in the new A-380 also fall under that gray area!

by the way, not trying to start an argument here, you have good points. However as you can see I have some of my own interpretations of the FFDO program.

take care

 

[ExpWayVis31]

If you are transporting your weapon to or from work and you are pulled over by local law enforcement for a traffic infraction you are required to identify your self as a "Federal Law Enforcement Officer and that you are transporting a weapon"

If you are NOT transporting your weapon...well that is a gray area...but I do know that a PBA card from one of NY's Finest works wonders.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=\Nation\archive\200402\NAT20040202b.html

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/1066671/posts

Seems like article after article about how TSA is not supporting the program. These are the people you are going to trust in some kind of problem?

 

[Flyerjosh]

Everybody says it is a great program but nobody can point out any support you guys are given as a FFDO. Who is the guy in your corner when there is a shooting, problem, mistake?

I've can't attest to mistakes or shootings, but I do know first hand how quickly support can come for FFDOs. I've had several issues resolved regarding jumpseating and security clearing very promptly (I went through FFDO training when the program was relatively new).

One morning departing an airport in ND as a jumpseater, there were some questions from the captain and station agents regarding whether FFDOs were permitted to jumpseat and under what circumstances (checked bags or carry on). Essentially I was going to be left behind at the captains request (and one that I was willing to abide by). I asked the captain if he would allow me onboard if he was contacted by his company with instructions/clarification, to which he replied yes. I whipped out the 800 number, and explained my situation. Within 3 minutes, the captain had received a phone call on his cell from dispatch, an ACARs message, and the station was called by their company dispatch. I was quite impressed considering it was about 530am Eastern.

That's just one example, but I can attest to the fact that support has always been prompt when I've requested it. In addition the amount of information that is provided to FFDOs on a regular basis is quite impressive.

 

[Secret Squirrel]

That's just one example, but I can attest to the fact that support has always been prompt when I've requested it. In addition the amount of information that is provided to FFDOs on a regular basis is quite impressive.

I am more worried about the support in case of a incident and training. What about the guy who loses his gun. Accidental shooting.

What if this guy actually told the officer all the correct information but it was a personal conflict with an asshole cop. Who is going to bat for the FFDO?

Here is a good article
http://www.nationalreview.com/kopel/kopel070203.asp

 

[ExpWayVis31]

an asshole cop.

We don't have any of those here in NY