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AA negotiators kick a pilot anthill

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Senior people will love it.

Mid-seniority people better learn to bid or they'll be miserable.

Lower seniority people will absolutely, positively, f**king HATE IT!!

I think you can revise that to say, EVERYONE will f**king hate it, the way AMR likes to run things. See above posts.
 
Unfortunately, the PBS system requires a large amount of transparency and oversight by the union to ensure the company isn't abusing it. Ask a TWA guy what they thought of it. They set the bar.

My 2cents.

That's EXACTLY why it won't work with AMR running it.

TC
TWA
881230
 
That's EXACTLY why it won't work with AMR running it.

TC
TWA
881230

If you want to see an example of PBS success, look to DAL. Of course DALPA got to choose the vendor, and we get significant input into the monthly PBS process, including a committee that can (and does) reject solutions provided by the company.

With all that oversight PBS has actually worked rather well for us. Absent it, it could have been ugly, as it apparently has been many other places.
 
If you want to see an example of PBS success, look to DAL. Of course DALPA got to choose the vendor, and we get significant input into the monthly PBS process, including a committee that can (and does) reject solutions provided by the company.

With all that oversight PBS has actually worked rather well for us. Absent it, it could have been ugly, as it apparently has been many other places.

Heyas,

I'm going to throw in with JQ here. NWA was one of the first to implement PBS.

You absolutely MUST give the union the power to accept/reject the myriad parameters of the system with complete oversight of the system. On top of that, you have to have the ability to PULL THE PLUG at anytime, forcing the company back to the old system (keeps them honest).

NWALPA did this, and for many, many years, PBS was absolutely fantastic, with over 95% bid satisfaction (which includes the very junior...most complaints were from the senior).

They lost a bit of control over the process in BQ, and the PBS system RAPIDLY turned into a crapfest, producing essentially random schedules.

I can't stress this enough: YOU MUST control how open time and stacking (time remaining on certain days) are handled. These are the keys to how the entire system works, and what kind of results you will get.

If you can keep those items in check, then PBS can be a real boon to the pilot group.

Nu
 
If you want to see an example of PBS success, look to DAL. Of course DALPA got to choose the vendor, and we get significant input into the monthly PBS process, including a committee that can (and does) reject solutions provided by the company.

With all that oversight PBS has actually worked rather well for us. Absent it, it could have been ugly, as it apparently has been many other places.

R u serious? My DAL buddies hate it... they say there is never any open time, very limited trip trading, working up to 90hrs/month, etc. Screw that!

73
Still think a 78 hour month is high!
 
PBS can help the company which in turn might keep your job. Try and keep an open mind guys.


Are you grinning like an idiot beacuse you are that stupid or is it beacuse the parking brake is up your arse?

At CAL, most folks don't like PBS. I do like the idea of using it but there are many problems that still need to be fixed. The biggest is the interface. Terrible. FORTRAN programming at it's worst.

The other major problem is vacation. With pre-constructed lines you can bid so that trips touch your vacation. Four-four days in a month that touch two weeks of vacation and you have the entire month off with guarantee pay. With PBS, your vacation will be a pre-conflict and no trips will touch it. The same will generally apply to training, known sick-time, military training, etc.
 
R u serious? My DAL buddies hate it... they say there is never any open time, very limited trip trading, working up to 90hrs/month, etc. Screw that!

73
Still think a 78 hour month is high!

Well for starters you are spouting a contradiction--"90 hour months" along with no open time. How can you have one and the other. Here is the real story.

You NEVER have 90 hour months with PBS. The most it could ever be (usually in the summer) is 89:30. Of course many times of year it can be as little as 65. My Nov schedule is at 71.

As for no open time...that is the whole point, isn't it? Think about it. If you have a lot of open time left over after the bid run (with line of time or PBS) that is several more regular lines that you could have built, but didn't, thereby relegating a few more guys to reserve than otherwise would have been necessary.

No trip trading? Hmmm. I just traded a trip with another guy last week! (on our Pilot-to-Pilot Swapboard). I also have dropped trips, and picked them up. I also have picked up, dropped, and swapped, trips out of "normal" open time as well as the swapboard.

If your buddies have any complaints about no open time, then that is related more to the time of year (now, with a big drawdown in flying) than the system.

I have yet to meet five guys in the last three years who would want to go back to Line of Time bidding--and we had a good LOT system!

In fact I think if we announced the end of PBS, you would probably get a host of complaints.

Pilots by default are big proponents of "all change is bad, and the good ol' days were always better than now." But remember this: "This week's 'crisis' is next week's footnote."
 
The other major problem is vacation. With pre-constructed lines you can bid so that trips touch your vacation. Four-four days in a month that touch two weeks of vacation and you have the entire month off with guarantee pay. With PBS, your vacation will be a pre-conflict and no trips will touch it. The same will generally apply to training, known sick-time, military training, etc.

Hey, I want to go to a Mercedes dealer and say "I'll give you $500" and he says "We got a deal."

But I live in the real world. And in the real world, if you have two weeks of vacation, that means you work the other two--not get paid for them even though you DON'T work them.

Our old LOT system was great, with all sorts of nuances that would allow you to combine reserve and regular lines to get a lot of hours for little work. I remember milking the system one month and got 90 hrs for flying 6 days!

Hey, I would love to see those days again...but we live in a capitalist society (sort of; after the recent fiascos and govt bailouts I wonder). If I or you want to get 90 hours pay...then we need to do 90 hours work...or at least 75-80 hrs work with some OT premium pay thrown in. But getting 16 days worth of pay for 6 days worth of work is unsustainable. I enjoyed it while it lasted, but don't obsess over its passing.

Don't get this mixed up with trip guarantees. Trip rigs, duty rigs, Duty Period Average, and all the rest, are vitally important to force the company to schedule efficient and humane trips. Within those constraints, however, I don't think it unreasonable for pilots (not on reserve) to actually be expected to fly the hours they are being paid. (Reserve pilots are different; they are "insurance" for the company and as such, should always be paid a reserve guarantee like they are).
 
If you haven't tried it, don't knock it. I've used it at two different airlines, and it works great - if you take the time to read the manual and understand they system!! There is no other way to get the specific days off you want, or the trips you want without a PBS system. Grow up and try something new!

The amount of open time, trip trading and the rest is entirely due to company staffing, not which type of bidding system you have. The two are separate animals.

HAL
 

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