AA Jamaica UPDATE: Jamaican Investigator claims poor landing

[waveflyer]

Most accidents at the majors happen when the PIC is flying.

Probably because a lot of airlines require the captain to land if conditions are not ideal. Making approaches close to minimums or winds beyond a certain limit or special airports make it the captains landing.

which is a really dumb policy based on ego

 

[bubbers44]

How could it be ego if SOP's require it? Just heard the first 2800 ft at Kingston was natamed closed on Dec 22. Anybody know how to check past notams?

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

How could it be ego if SOP's require it?

For a more extreme example that still proves the point:

How could forcing riders to the back of the bus be racism, if laws require it?

Just heard the first 2800 ft at Kingston was natamed closed on Dec 22. Anybody know how to check past notams?

That's very interesting. Where did you hear that?

 

[bubbers44]

I found that on the 25th R30 was displaced making 2440 meters, 8000 ft available because of the 737 obstacle. Probably what got somebody confused.

 

[humveedriver]

which is a really dumb policy based on ego

I respectfully disagree. Each operator defines when the CA/PIC must perform the TO and Landing, and includes the caveat at the PIC's discretion. If you think it has more to do with ego, as opposed to liability, I encourage you to take another look at your position on the matter. Put simply; Something goes wrong under questionable conditions, FO flying, thats one more decision to explain to NTSB/FAA. At this stage of the game we all know how to fly airplanes, and we should know how the game is played.

 

[Captain X]

If it shows me legal to land - I will land.

Even if your gut or prior experience put the safety of doing such in doubt?

Legal does not always necessarily equal safe.

This is the exact "group think" mentality some posters are trying to get at.

We've all seen aircraft after aircraft land long or hot when a field is running approaches with a tailwind. At my domicile it takes 3 go-arounds, or crews not accepting the tailwind before they flip the field. The majority of pilots don't do it because it is "inconvenient." You think the crews don't control the flow, but in reality we really do.

We've also all seen company or OAL aircraft depart into nasty weather or after reported windshear alerts because waiting was "inconvenient."

We've all seen the time-lapse videos of DFW or MEM arrivals and how crews continually try to "beat" weather to the point where they eventually put themselves in a position of penetrating a cell in close proximity to the ground that they would normally avoid by 10-20 miles enroute. Just because the Lear went through the rainshower on short ahead of us doesn't necessarily mean we'll make it through with our L-1011.

Ultimately, it comes down to the PIC of the aircraft to determine what is safe and how the operation is carried out. And it comes down to the SIC to keep the PIC honest.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Even if your gut or prior experience put the safety of doing such in doubt?

Legal does not always necessarily equal safe.

This is the exact "group think" mentality some posters are trying to get at.

One should always trust their gut feelings. They're more refined than our own rational ability to reason and see something we don't necessarily see consciously.

Our internal instincts kept us alive for far longer than our cognitive abilities of reasoning have, which are often faulty and suspect due to contamination or misinterpretation of stimuli or information. Quite often your mind "lies" (for lack of a better word) to you. Deceives you. This is what lies behind mistakes such as those which manifest themselves from say, fatigue. Yes, your mind plays tricks on you.

Our perceptions are much more limited in this sense. We only know what we've retrived and processed mentally. Outside of this realm of thought lies much extraneous information which is going unprocessed due to the inherent limitations of our consicous mind. The short-term memory has a finite ability or capacity to hold information and must choose between what gets presented and what is left out. Think of it as a Powerpoint-like widdling down of data. We can't register all the available information and process it rationally fast enough or with enough integrity when compared to the internal instincts at hand.

 

[bubbers44]

I never landed because I thought I was better than the FO but if SOP says you have to do it, you do it. You aren't doing the FO any favors by letting he or she do landings when he or she isn't allowed to, you just put both of you in jeopardy for not following SOP. I was almost ready to let my favorite pilot land at our most difficult airport because he had a house there and had landed there more than me when one of our guys flew through a fence too low and both pilots got in a lot of trouble. It isn't worth it to help the FO's ego. You also put him or her in jeopardy.

 

[Microclimates]

I never landed because I thought I was better than the FO but if SOP says you have to do it, you do it. You aren't doing the FO any favors by letting he or she do landings when he or she isn't allowed to, you just put both of you in jeopardy for not following SOP. I was almost ready to let my favorite pilot land at our most difficult airport because he had a house there and had landed there more than me when one of our guys flew through a fence too low and both pilots got in a lot of trouble. It isn't worth it to help the FO's ego. You also put him or her in jeopardy.

As an FO I completely agree... I can see how it can be a bit awkward for a captain who trusts (thank god) the FO they are flying with to take over the controls when conditions are beyond the SOP limitations for SICs, but it truly is no favor to anybody in that flight deck to violate SOP for what-- crosswind ego? considering the burger king wages involved from my perspective, it's hardly worth risking the job to show that 'i can handle it' which i know i can...

 

[bubbers44]

I know you can too. But if anything goes wrong the voice recorder will know who landed. Now both of you are in trouble if the captain was the only one allowed to land. Why risk it.