AA Contract UPHELD!!

[xjhawk]

( Uh....Mods? )

Is it possible to get the Kids off here that have no understanding as to what this means historically?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I respect that...But, C'mon.


Whatever....Those who understand this WILL, and those who don't... WON'T.

I'm almost too old to care.... but, it's a Great Day in "Airline Town".

Love,

YKW

if you are talking about me I think I have been around the block a few times and know what is going on in this industry. Furlough ,contract negotiation, loss of fleet, displacement, base displacement, acquisition, another acquisition, merger (screwed on seniority), loss of two fleets and another bankruptcy. Watch who your sorry ass is calling a kid-and go cry to the mods about your own stupid opinions. I know where mine is coming from-experience-not some self entitlement *********************************** who looks down on those of us who have been waiting 10 plus years at the regionals to get hired at a company that matters. go ahead and PM me and we will talk-maybe I can talk some sense into you

 

[xjhawk]

yeah, two bankruptcies-you heard that right. When you get done with your first one, come talk to me about experience in this matter.

 

[aa73]

For all you naysayers, rant and rave all you want about how we screwed up. I stand by how I voted. I'll repost what I posted on another MB:

In a nutshell: we have elected to stand up to management's (and previous managements) "carte blanche" to totally decimate every facet of pilot contracts using the BK trump card.

So far, we have won a couple of victories. We are under no illusions whatsoever that the court almost always favors management in BK cases. This will probably happen to us as well. But at least we are fighting and delaying it as much as we can - UNLIKE almost every other pilot group before us, who all took negotiated deals. Sorry, but our negotiated deal was a death sentence.

At least now, if they abrogate our contract, yes we end up with a crappier deal SHORT TERM but we go right back in to negotiating for an industry leading contract the minute they exit BK or merge.

As opposed to voting Yes on the industry's WORST most concessionary contract ever locked in for 10 years. Almost everyone saw how overreaching it was.

For those of you who thought we should have voted Yes, it begs the question: How bad does a TA have to be in order for you to vote No? For some of you, it's an irrelevant question: your answer would be, "It doesn't matter, you are in BK, you HAVE to take whatever deal they give you."

The above sentence, my friends, is why this profession is in the toilet.

We just took a stand against that.

Signed, a proud AA Pilot
73

 

[enuffalready]

( Uh....Mods? )

Is it possible to get the Kids off here that have no understanding as to what this means historically?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I respect that...But, C'mon.


Whatever....Those who understand this WILL, and those who don't... WON'T.

I'm almost too old to care.... but, it's a Great Day in "Airline Town".

Love,

YKW

Kids? what are you talking about? Read it yourself. Judge ruled company negotiated in Good faith and apa didnt. Judge ruled in favor of management in ALL clauses accept furlough and code share. Look for company to refile those 2 before the weekend. Again, not sure what historical reference you are speaking? please do yourself a favor and go back and read what the judge ruled before you pop the corks

 

[MINIME]

For all you naysayers, rant and rave all you want about how we screwed up. I stand by how I voted. I'll repost what I posted on another MB:

In a nutshell: we have elected to stand up to management's (and previous managements) "carte blanche" to totally decimate every facet of pilot contracts using the BK trump card.

So far, we have won a couple of victories. We are under no illusions whatsoever that the court almost always favors management in BK cases. This will probably happen to us as well. But at least we are fighting and delaying it as much as we can - UNLIKE almost every other pilot group before us, who all took negotiated deals. Sorry, but our negotiated deal was a death sentence.

At least now, if they abrogate our contract, yes we end up with a crappier deal SHORT TERM but we go right back in to negotiating for an industry leading contract the minute they exit BK or merge.

As opposed to voting Yes on the industry's WORST most concessionary contract ever locked in for 10 years. Almost everyone saw how overreaching it was.

For those of you who thought we should have voted Yes, it begs the question: How bad does a TA have to be in order for you to vote No? For some of you, it's an irrelevant question: your answer would be, "It doesn't matter, you are in BK, you HAVE to take whatever deal they give you."

The above sentence, my friends, is why this profession is in the toilet.

We just took a stand against that.

Signed, a proud AA Pilot
73

Right on brother....

If more pilots thought and were as informed as you sir, we would probably be doing better in this profession. It's clear that you understand the court system and where you stand. You can see beyond and understand that even after a court sponsored abrogation, not all is lost. The company will have to negotiate after a BK exit. It may not be quick nor painless, but hopefully not ten years. Parker is still out there, he may still be of some assistace.

You sent management a clear message that you are paying attention and understand your position. And, that you will ALSO use the system to better your stance. It takes courage, wit, and intelligence to accomplish something of this magnitude. As of the last few years, management has come to expect little resistance and intelligence from us. Our lack of understanding of the the game and our clear disadvantage within the confines of governing laws have been very profitable for management.

Easy for me to say from where I sit, but thank you for your stance. Hopefully most of us can learn something from you.

 

[Flopgut]

If you don't think this is a significant win for pilot labor, you have not read Sun Tzu's Art of War.

 

[ironspud]

Only temporary. Even the AA FA union is re-iterating that the judge only tossed 2 elements of the 1113. That will change on Friday when AMR does a fast rewrite and repetitions with the judge. APFA is recommending strongly that the FA's approve their TA. One comment from their hotline says it all: To reiterate, the remainder of the court's 100+ page decision validated each of American's arguments for its business plan and dismantled each of the unions' cases against it.

 

[enuffalready]

If you don't think this is a significant win for pilot labor, you have not read Sun Tzu's Art of War.

umm, wow....did you even read the ruling? Jackie Chan?

 

[BoilerUP]

As Kenny Rogers once sang, "You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em, know when to walk away, and know when to run."

That said, sometimes you gotta make a stand and fight the good fight, even if you know you're going to lose.

AA pilots aren't stupid - they've seen the last ten years of airline after airline go through the bankruptcy process and labor contracts be gutted by pilots choosing to ratify known concessions rather than unknown ones forced upon them. AA pilots knew the risks to their CBA AND the likelihood of a judge granting management's motion to abrogate it, and yet they made their collective decision to vote down the LBFO anyway.

AA pilots won a small victory in this case; they'll likely face a major defeat in the coming week or two and they know it. And yet, that victory sets a precedent of labor winning *something* in court, which to this point has been pretty rare. It puts pressure on Horton from not only a labor side, but the financial side.

Funny...pilots take concessions and other pilots give them hell, with many crying out for SOMEBODY to take a stand. And when AA pilots collectively say NO, COME AND TAKE IT to their management, other pilots still give them hell...

 

[Always deferred]

It's hard to argue with voting down the TA if only in the sense that AA pilots avoid 6-10 years of being locked into it. At least they have a fighting chance at renegotiating some terms coming out of BK, though that remains to be seen. Hopefully, the next deal closes the bitter gap between labor and AA mgmt and the company can move forward in some sort of harmony.

For those of you celebrating, give it a week or so and then see what happens. Hopefully you'll still be celebrating but unfortunately my gut tells me otherwise.

 

[Whine Lover]

" ...if you are talking about me ..." - xjhawk


Uh, no I wasn't talking about you specifically. Sorry if you took it that way as I apparently struck a nerve. (?)

I try not to get personal on these boards. Urination matches benefit no one.


Whine

 

[Whine Lover]

" ...at least we are fighting and delaying it as much as we can - UNLIKE almost every other pilot group before us, who all took negotiated deals. Sorry, but our negotiated deal was a death sentence. " - aa73

BINGO. My point exactly.


A gunman walks up to you and hands you a pistol and says " your choice, I'm going to shoot you, or you can pull the trigger yourself. "

Every other pilot group faced with an 1113c has said " Oh here , let me help you with that!" and voted yes, sealing their fate.

American pilots at the very LEAST had the cajones to say " Ya' know what? F.U. Do your own work. " and voted no.

THAT, my friends is the simple point of my argument.

I am under no illusions that American pilots will now go skipping merrily down the street from here because they voted no.

On the contrary, I agree with many of you, AMR will in all likelihood be handed the 1113c and the contract will be abrogated.

So, in effect, the pilots will be in somewhat the same position that they would have been had they voted yes ( actually a much better position considering a proposed 10 year length of contract ) ....However, they will at least have their pride intact and will not have been so weak as to assist someone in their own demise because they were weak and fearful of the alternate outcome.

Additionally, they have preserved the right to negotiate something much better, much sooner, than 10 years from now.

I say again - " Good for you Ladies and Gentleman of the American Airlines Pilot group."

Whine

 

[aa73]

What BoilerUP said.

This victory is small, and we will surely take it in the shorts.

But for the first time ever - Labor is taking a stand and making management accountable, and a BK judge is noticing. That's huge. We'll take it, no matter how small.

Despite what some may say, AMRs refiling and the judge's re evaluation is gonna take a lot longer than some think. I would not be surprised if the judge orders us to renegotiate in that time period.

If anything, we'll be known for fighting to the end.

Think of the leverage and motivation this gives other pilot groups should they find themselves in BK in the future.

Glad to do our part!

 

[Whine Lover]

" If anything, we'll be known for fighting to the end.

Think of the leverage and motivation this gives other pilot groups should they find themselves in BK in the future. "


WORD.


YKW

 

[Bringupthebird]

It's hard to argue with voting down the TA if only in the sense that AA pilots avoid 6-10 years of being locked into it. At least they have a fighting chance at renegotiating some terms coming out of BK, though that remains to be seen. Hopefully, the next deal closes the bitter gap between labor and AA mgmt and the company can move forward in some sort of harmony.

The former AWA pilots are working under an agreement known as Contract 2000 which was ratified in 2004. You never know how long you'll be stuck with a contract especially after a shotgun wedding (where technically the shotgun is used only as a threat, but in our case we got both barrels as a wedding gift ).