A319 Take Off at Austin question...

[Fernando]

Yesterday i saw an A319 take off at KAUS runway 17r from the G intersection (heres the chart http://www.airnav.com/airport/KAUS )

I was wondering if this was too risky or can be considered OK for the type of plane, what do you think?

Was it too risky? i saw dirt floating around when they
got airbone

 

[Correcting]

Hard to say. I'm sure they had an airport analysis and numbers that said they could do it. That's still a fair amount of distance from that intersection. Looks like around 7,000 feet. There are lots of airports where an A319 flies that have less than 7000-foot runways.

Look at Orange County (KSNA) or Chicago Midway (KMDW) as an example.

All sorts of 757's, 737'a, A319's and 20's, MD80's going in to those places.

 

[zkmayo]

Yesterday i saw an A319 take off at KAUS runway 17r from the G intersection (heres the chart http://www.airnav.com/airport/KAUS )

I was wondering if this was too risky or can be considered OK for the type of plane, what do you think?

Was it too risky? i saw dirt floating around when they
got airbone

Hard to say... ultimately the PIC's call. The old adage about nothing less worthless than runway behind you always applies, however. It being a 319,its prob safe to assume it was a 121 operator which means that a w/b and t/o distance had to be computed prior to takeoff. That req distance would take into acct temp, weight, press.alt, avail runway distance, accelerate/stop senarios, runway conditions, slope, icing, and 2nd segment climb issues and prob a bunch of other things I forgot.

All that being said, as long as its legal for the distance avail (derived from t/o and w/b data) its ultimately the PIC's call. However, you'd be hard pressed to defend that call should you abort and not be able to stop the airplane for some reason and the FAA comes calling (technically shouldnt happen if abort below V1, timely and proper reject procedure used, and above t/o data computation was correct and used).

However, what's legal doesnt necessarily make it safe. My personal priorities have always been safety first, legal a very close second, and finally on-time/pax comfort a distant third.

319s/20s fly out of 7000ish ft all the time (LGA, BUR, DCA) and that looks about what int G is. Again, PIC's perogative.

 

[get2flyin]

When the numbers come off of the ACARS printer, if the runway and intersection is listed, you're good to go. We could pull out the manuals and try to work out the numbers but the companies dispatch program grinds up the applicable temp, weight, wind, etc, data and says yes or no. It's just about the black and white.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

When the numbers come off of the ACARS printer, if the runway and intersection is listed, you're good to go. We could pull out the manuals and try to work out the numbers but the companies dispatch program grinds up the applicable temp, weight, wind, etc, data and says yes or no. It's just about the black and white.

If you don't have obstacles considered, the onboard runarounds wouldn't be accurate.
Also, not everybody gets stuff off the ACARS, some have onboard performance software, JB and SWA, for example.

 

[get2flyin]

If you don't have obstacles considered, the onboard runarounds wouldn't be accurate.
Also, not everybody gets stuff off the ACARS, some have onboard performance software, JB and SWA, for example.

Ok, then let me rephrase that. "When the numbers come off of the ACARS printer, if the runway and intersection is listed, WE *(meaning my company) are good to go."

I have no idea what anybody else on the Airbus does. Also, I think the SIDs dictate what the obstacle limits are. If the specific airport has some obstacle that impedes the 200'/mile *(digging WAY back into my teaching days so don't quote that) cone, then that would be noted in the SID and a minimum climb gradient could be determined. The subsequent performance requirement could then be determined from the onboard manual.

On second thought, maybe I just made that entire thing up....my CFI has expired and thus my FAR/AIM knowledge is a little rusty.

I guess I'll just go if dispatch says I can.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

I have no idea what anybody else on the Airbus does. Also, I think the SIDs dictate what the obstacle limits are. If the specific airport has some obstacle that impedes the 200'/mile *(digging WAY back into my teaching days so don't quote that) cone, then that would be noted in the SID and a minimum climb gradient could be determined. The subsequent performance requirement could then be determined from the onboard manual.

On second thought, maybe I just made that entire thing up....my CFI has expired and thus my FAR/AIM knowledge is a little rusty.

I guess I'll just go if dispatch says I can.

I agree with the dispatch comment, but I think that if you'll think about it a minute, the SID theory isn't correct. The perf is also predicated on 2nd, 3rd, and 4th segment climbs, as well as the runway limits.

 

[D-Bo]

Yesterday i saw an A319 take off at KAUS runway 17r from the G intersection (heres the chart http://www.airnav.com/airport/KAUS )

I was wondering if this was too risky or can be considered OK for the type of plane, what do you think?

Was it too risky? i saw dirt floating around when they
got airbone

I'm sure it was legal but I'm also sure it was someone trying way TOO hard to save fuel for their airline. Who was it? F9 or UAL? I bet it wasn't UAL. Or is there another Airbus operator into KAUS?

Someone out there thinks their couple hundred pounds, if even that, of taxi fuel saved is gonna determine the fate of their airline.

No one out there can single handedly save their airline but you can save your own ass. Maybe they get paid more the more they stick out their neck?

 

[Fernando]

It was a Frontier i believe

 

[oldxfr8dog]

I'm sure it was legal but I'm also sure it was someone trying way TOO hard to save fuel for their airline. Who was it? F9 or UAL? I bet it wasn't UAL. Or is there another Airbus operator into KAUS?

Someone out there thinks their couple hundred pounds, if even that, of taxi fuel saved is gonna determine the fate of their airline.

No one out there can single handedly save their airline but you can save your own ass. Maybe they get paid more the more they stick out their neck?

D Bo, you have the big picture.

I always ask myself, when faced with such (non) decisions, "How will I explain this at the investigation?".

Edit: Or, maybe that airplane was empty. If very light, maybe extra margin was available.
I don't like to second guess another crew. I wasn't there.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

Was it an eagle or a deer on the tail? Certainly there is a difference between a UAUA plane and FNT!!!

 

[CatfishVT9]

Yesterday i saw an A319 take off at KAUS runway 17r from the G intersection (heres the chart http://www.airnav.com/airport/KAUS )

I was wondering if this was too risky or can be considered OK for the type of plane, what do you think?

Was it too risky? i saw dirt floating around when they
got airbone

You're not the guy who was on my airplane about a year ago and screamed out "ABORT!!!!" because he thought the takeoff roll was too long, are you? He was a low time pilot who knew a little too much.

 

[JetPilot_Mike]

You're not the guy who was on my airplane about a year ago and screamed out "ABORT!!!!" because he thought the takeoff roll was too long, are you? He was a low time pilot who knew a little too much.

Oh my! What a bonehead!

 

[Mickey D]

I saw this 319 a few months back at Key West (EYW)

Citizen Staff
Spirit Airlines is considering adding Key West to its routes and this week sent a 144-seat plane to test the runway with a series of touch-and-gos. The Miramar-based airline will meet with Monroe County airport officials next week to discuss whether Spirit’s A319 Airbus will become a frequent flier to the Southernmost City. “We haven’t heard anything officially from them that they’re coming, but we’re certainly being considered,” Monroe County Airports Director Peter Horton said of both the Key West and Marathon airports. “If they do come in with the frequency we hope for, this would be the biggest news for the airport since Delta began direct flights to Atlanta” in 2002. Spirit’s Airbus carries twice as many passengers as Delta’s, yet is only 4 feet longer, so either runway should accommodate them, Horton said. The plane’s wings help it maneuver on shorter runways. Company spokeswoman Alison Russell would not comment on the possibility of Spirit flying to Key West, saying only that the Airbus was testing what’s possible for shorter runway operations, those less than 5,000 feet. Key West’s runway is 4,800 feet, while Marathon’s is 5,000 feet. The airline’s visit to Key West was a good sign, Horton said. Spirit, which is looking for 10 new South Florida cities from which to operate, could begin its route as early as February if it decides on Key West. The low-cost airline, whose affiliate Spirit Vacations offers Key West package deals, flies mostly to destinations in the Bahamas, Caribbean and Latin America. In January, Spirit purchased 30 new A319 Airbus planes. “When coupled with high productivity in all parts of our operation, these new airplanes affirm Spirit’s position as the leading low-cost carrier to the Caribbean and Latin America, as well as provide the basis for a sound and rational growth plan into the next decade,” President and CEO Ben Baldanza said in a press release.

 

[XShuttle]

We operate out of JAC all the time 6800' of runway and about 6500' elevation. For those of you worried about what to say during the investigation do you go max blast all the time and ask for full length when using 32L in ORD?

 

[Jeeves]

bored on a layover. saw the thread. we (b6) fly the bus there now too (used to just be the jungle jet). either way, we run all the #'s on our laptops with a performance computer (w/b, told, etc)....just ran it for a 320 with IAD's not CFM's (sorry not a 319), winds calm, GW of ~159000#'s (that's the limit for the conditions), about 95 degrees OAT, and still gave a FLEX (reduced power) takeoff with about 400' stopping margin (i.e. RTO @ V1) from G intersection. FWIW....its a pretty damn capable plane.

 

[Dave's kid]

bored on a layover. saw the thread. we (b6) fly the bus there now too (used to just be the jungle jet). either way, we run all the #'s on our laptops with a performance computer (w/b, told, etc)....just ran it for a 320 with IAD's not CFM's (sorry not a 319), winds calm, GW of ~159000#'s (that's the limit for the conditions), about 95 degrees OAT, and still gave a FLEX (reduced power) takeoff with about 400' stopping margin (i.e. RTO @ V1) from G intersection. FWIW....its a pretty damn capable plane.

You must be VERY bored on a layover to be running random W&B problems.

 

[D-Bo]

We operate out of JAC all the time 6800' of runway and about 6500' elevation. For those of you worried about what to say during the investigation do you go max blast all the time and ask for full length when using 32L in ORD?

Oh the airplane is capable. Not even saying it's dangerous. Why do we take intersection takeoffs? Either because it's normal ops as in the case on 32L T10 in ORD or to save time/fuel. My point is I wouldn't go chopping the runway in half just to save my company a few dollars. Sure it's safe if the numbers say so but I don't get paid more for reducing my margin. Do you or anyone else on this board? Esspecially to act as if I'm saving my airline one flight at a time.

 

[D-Bo]

Also, numbers spit out on ACARS are based on brand spankin new engines with a test pilot with a stop or go decision made at precisely V1. Perfect day, perfect airplane, and you 100% on your game......knowing what was about to happen. Without taking into consideration a ******************** load of other possible, negative variables.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Citizen Staff
Spirit Airlines is considering adding Key West to its routes and this week sent a 144-seat plane to test the runway with a series of touch-and-gos. The Miramar-based airline will meet with Monroe County airport officials next week to discuss whether Spirit’s A319 Airbus will become a frequent flier to the Southernmost City.

Didn't Eastern fly 727's into EYW? I know that Piedmont ( the real one) flew F-28's in there

 

[Alchemy]

It was probably viva aerobus.

With $9 tickets you're lucky if you live through the flight.

 

[ultrarunner]

The 727 is an excellent short field airplane.

 

[Mickey D]

Didn't Eastern fly 727's into EYW? I know that Piedmont ( the real one) flew F-28's in there

You're right--Eastern did fly 727's there, although from what I understand they were weight restricted. Piedmont flew their F-28's there quite a bit as part of their Florida Shuttle in the late 80's--we flew on one when I was a kid.

 

[waveflyer]

Oh the airplane is capable. Not even saying it's dangerous. Why do we take intersection takeoffs? Either because it's normal ops as in the case on 32L T10 in ORD or to save time/fuel. My point is I wouldn't go chopping the runway in half just to save my company a few dollars. Sure it's safe if the numbers say so but I don't get paid more for reducing my margin. Do you or anyone else on this board? Esspecially to act as if I'm saving my airline one flight at a time.

As opposed to killing your airline one flight at a time?
wtf?
In every choice you make- you need to multiply that by every crew in the company... wasting money under the guise of safety is ridiculous and steals credibility from the unions. If you're comfortable out of a 7000' rwy- you should be comfortable from an intersection w/ 7000 remaining. CEO's are killing american industry- but it's this mentality that is helping motivate them to kill unionism.

 

[D-Bo]

As opposed to killing your airline one flight at a time?
wtf?
In every choice you make- you need to multiply that by every crew in the company... wasting money under the guise of safety is ridiculous and steals credibility from the unions. If you're comfortable out of a 7000' rwy- you should be comfortable from an intersection w/ 7000 remaining. CEO's are killing american industry- but it's this mentality that is helping motivate them to kill unionism.

That's laughable. I'd be killing my airline financially by making full length takeoffs? Of course I'[m comfortable making takeoffs on 7000 or even 6000 foot runways......when that's all that's available or restricted by normal airport ops. Too many of you folks think your airline management. Your not. We could be asset managers but unless your at one of the two or three best airline gigs going, you're only getting paid to fly from point A to point B safely. Nothing else. If they want me to go above and beyond they have to F'n pay for it.

 

[D-Bo]

CEO's are killing american industry- but it's this mentality that is helping motivate them to kill unionism.

Your wrong. What motivates them are the weak F'n D*** head pilots that let them continuously rape them that management can't help themselves from coming back to the whooooores that keep giving it up. They're sex addicts and most in our industry love to lay on their back.


Your something else. By your F'd up logic maybe we shouldn't do anything to piss of those management guys. We wouldn't want to motivate them to retaliate. And you think my mentality is F'd? HUH???????? Better not act like a true unionist or those big bad management guys are gonna get motivated. You can't be in a union with that attitude dude. Did you happen to sneak into one?

My airline has a weak weak weak bankruptcy contract because of fools that had your mentality. You think you're saving yourself but in reality all they did was make folks like you feel like it was in your best interest to dig your own grave.

 

[waveflyer]

yeah-- you're right-- i'm the weak one. I'm the reason you're under your contract. Gov't wasn't involved- and abuse of BK laws wasn't either... right? Wrong- but at some point you have to ask yourself why there was the political will to rape airline pilots?

You need to do everyone who's actually working in unions a favor and keep our credibility high by doing your job. A big part of that is maximizing you and your a/c's capabilities to earn $$. G'damned hard to get you a raise if there's no money in the coffers and you keep burning it in the operation for no reason at all. If it's to send a message to mgmt- then do it- but DO IT ORGANIZED! You all by yourself, setting little untrackable fires does nothing for our cause.

I fight for your right to money earned. Key word: EARNED. You ARE an asset manager- there's no getting around that responsibility- and it's the main argument for getting paid well. If you don't take on the task- then i can't go to the company and say you are valuable. Do you see my point? Why you would want to perpetuate the idea that pilots are just commodities- like fuel- is beyond me. We need to get them to realize that our decisions and capabilities have very real marketable value. That doesn't happen if you act like a weak-d!cked aviator and can't get an airplane off a 7000' rwy intersection to save a few hundred lbs.
If you can't do that - and do it safely- you don't need to be doing this job- and i don't particularly feel like fighting for your right to do this job-- A big part of the paycuts has come from the perception that this job has been dumbed down to keep the lowest common denominators out of trouble....
how about we just kick those guys out of the industry instead, and let the good pilots earn their money by their performance.
Whether you can admit it or not- it's what southwest has been doing to us for 30 years

 

[D-Bo]

You need to do everyone who's actually working in unions a favor and keep our credibility high by doing your job. A big part of that is maximizing you and your a/c's capabilities to earn $$. G'damned hard to get you a raise if there's no money in the coffers and you keep burning it in the operation for no reason at all.

Who the F are you preaching to? You've already made a crucial mistake. You've indicated that you're concerned about whats in the company's coffers to gage what you may or may not be able to get or deserve. You want money because your airline is in a good cash position? No problem. They can take care of the bull sh** with the stroke of a pen and an earnings report. You must be a rookie. You sound smart but you really don't know what you're talking about and are probably in over your head if your dealing with airline management that has played this game before.

Go save some fuel and stick your neck out to build up those company coffers. I'm sure they'll pat you on the head and give you a doggy bone. You're lost.

 

[waveflyer]

Look-- i can't even argue that. B/c that's what they've done. Exec's are a big cause of this recession. Taking too much- cooking books. Who's motivated to perform in this environment? You'd be stupid to care.

I'm not saying it's everything- it just lacks credibility if you call the intersection t/o a "SAFETY" issue when you takeoff out of SNA and JAC all day long. What you're saying is that you don't care to take effort to save $$ and fuel... that's different and an attitude most execs have earned -- Just call it what it is and don't hide under the safety banner.

 

[D-Bo]

Look-- i can't even argue that. B/c that's what they've done. Exec's are a big cause of this recession. Taking too much- cooking books. Who's motivated to perform in this environment? You'd be stupid to care.

I'm not saying it's everything- it just lacks credibility if you call the intersection t/o a "SAFETY" issue when you takeoff out of SNA and JAC all day long. What you're saying is that you don't care to take effort to save $$ and fuel... that's different and an attitude most execs have earned -- Just call it what it is and don't hide under the safety banner.

I didn't say it was unsafe but what I did say is that I won't decrease my margin just to save my company a few dollars unless they pay me for it. I won't go above and beyond until they pay me enough to go above and beyond.