A very effective alternative to a strike

[Dirty Sanchez]

If the pilot group decides to go on strike, then that group has excercised every option, and it is their last tool available. They have hit a wall of progress. The line has been drawn. It takes a long time normally to get there.

I have never been on strike, and hope that I never do. I will go if it is required, and have voted for a strike vote during contract talks. But that too, is a tool, to motivate that company.

Neither side wants a strike, both sides lose.

A strike will never be allowed.

 

[Saabslime]

Guys,

I’ve got to be honest with you. After reading some of the responses to this tread, I fully understand why our profession has cratered over the last 25 years. Just burning a bit more gas and keeping the APU’s running has pilots wringing their hands and scurrying for the exits.

For your information, there is an all out assault on our profession by every management team in the industry and the ATA. Management wants pilots to be one notch above a long-haul truck driver. In fact most long-haul truck drivers with a sixth-grade education are making as much if not more than many of our folks at the regional airlines. Beginning wages for pilots are bottom of the barrel.

Managements will lie, cheat, and steal at every opportunity from us, but a lot of you are still naïve enough to want to be the nice guy and play by the rules. Fact is, most managements will not begin to bargain in good-faith until they start feeling the financial pain. Why should they?

Snapshot, AA pilots never paid anywhere near the $45.5 million dollar fine. AMR knows it had a great deal with APA and didn’t want to bankrupt the union. Had they taken the fine, most likely we would have gone back to ALPA and who knows what would have happened. As it stands, AMR was able to gain $660 million per year in concessions (most value it in the $800 million - $1 Billion range) in 2003. We probably won’t get a new contract until 2009 or 2010. You do the math.

We all have lost a lot of ground. If we want to get it back, it will take hard ball negotiations and tactics. Don’t plan on management to roll over for us.

AA767AV8TOR

Sorry but I was brought up with a different work ethic and I won't compromise that for anybody or anything. If you want a raise then you put your best foot forward and show that you can do your job better than the next guy. That's the way it's done in the real world. This us vs. them mentallity, and we gotta make em bleed to show we mean business is one of the big reasons organized labor is a dying breed in this country.

We sit here and organize slowdowns etc. that do nothing but screw our passengers for our own personal gain. Then we picket and expect the publics sympathy for our cause ?? Give me a break.

 

[Hedgehog]

If you really want to stand up for yourself and demand you get what you deserve, convince your pilot group to all tender their resignation at the same time with a conditional withdrawl upon receipt of a suitable contract offer.

Your union may tell you when you may strike, but you work on your own free will.

 

[AA767AV8TOR]

Sorry but I was brought up with a different work ethic and I won't compromise that for anybody or anything. If you want a raise then you put your best foot forward and show that you can do your job better than the next guy. That's the way it's done in the real world. This us vs. them mentallity, and we gotta make em bleed to show we mean business is one of the big reasons organized labor is a dying breed in this country.

SaabSlime,

As a pilot’s how do you measure that you’re doing your the job better job than the next guy?? Does it come down to a funny PA, a better approach, a smooth landing or burning less gas? Do those add up to a better pay rate?

I don’t know how long you’ve been in the industry, but your nice guy approach will get you killed at the negotiating table. We tried that approach here at APA the last 10 years and it’s resulted in a race for the bottom. Luckily we are now cleaning house.

Management will give you a nice big smile, put a big arm around you, and then knife you in the back with their other hand.

KNOW THE RULES OF OUR GAME:

1) Management and labor are not on the same team. We have different goals and are responsible to different groups of people.
2) Management wants you to do your job for less – even now at our current rock bottom prices if you let them.
3) Management will never willingly sit down and give you a raise. They only respond to fiscal and public pressure.
4) Playing nice guy results in longer and longer contracts. The end result of this is keeping it out of your pocket and in their as long as possible.
5) Management is adept at playing labor groups against one another.

Never forget that you are labor – not management. The next few years will get ugly as we try to get back what we lost. You need to take off the rose colored glasses. Unionism might be dying in other parts of the work force but it is very much alive in our industry.

Please read – Flying The Line.

AA767AV8TOR

 

[Snapshot]

All I said was that coming to message boards in an attempt to organize freelance action against the company is a bad idea. It is illegal and you have left an electronic paper trail that will be used against you by management.
Can you picture how big the smiles were on the faces of the management side of the table with 45 mil worth of leverage in their pocket? I'll bet they used it to get the 660 mil per year in concessions.

Well put, AA767AV8TOR. Some of the rest of you need to grow a set.
.

I've cleaned my gear out of the crew room, made picket signs, and come within hours of walking the line when management caved. I've gone back on my days off to an airline I didn't even work at anymore to walk the line with my former brothers. I know all about management and Hardball. I don't need a lesson from you.

 

[JohnQ]

Guys,

Snapshot, AA pilots never paid anywhere near the $45.5 million dollar fine.... As it stands, AMR was able to gain $660 million per year in concessions (most value it in the $800 million - $1 Billion range) in 2003. We probably won’t get a new contract until 2009 or 2010. You do the math.

AA767AV8TOR

The way I see it by your own admission your wildcat sickout ended up costing you a lot more than just the fine the judge levied. It was a very stupid move...but hey I'm sure the radicals felt good about it at the time. The bottom line is this. Wildcat movements are rarely successful. A withholding of service is only effective when explicitly directed by your union leadership IAW the Railway Labor Act. Yes airline labor is hamstrung by some of the ludicrous provisions that drag on contract talks far longer than any other labor group ever has to deal with, but for now that is the reality we have to deal with, as distasteful as it is.

 

[DrewBlows]

Someone from Comair who was there for the slowdown in the mid 90's and the strike could tell you more, but as it was explained to me the slowdown brought about greater changes in terms of work rules and soft pay than the strike. The strike netted higher pay and a defined contributions retirement plan. Of course bankruptcy (managements wild card) wiped it all out, but that's a different story.


Costing the company money as a general rule probably isn't the greatest idea, but there's a time and place for a slow down. I suspect causing delays would be more effective than burning more gas as it would be reported in the news papers. That's just my opinion though.

 

[Guitar rocker]

Sorry but I was brought up with a different work ethic and I won't compromise that for anybody or anything. If you want a raise then you put your best foot forward and show that you can do your job better than the next guy. That's the way it's done in the real world. This us vs. them mentallity, and we gotta make em bleed to show we mean business is one of the big reasons organized labor is a dying breed in this country.

We sit here and organize slowdowns etc. that do nothing but screw our passengers for our own personal gain. Then we picket and expect the publics sympathy for our cause ?? Give me a break.

When its contract time and if your looking for a lousy raise and horrible work rules, the above work ethic is the way to go.

 

[pilotyip]

Bk?

BOOZENEWS, that could drive a company to BK, they have very thin profit margins. When BK comes then they can impose even lower pay rates. Would you feel real good about that? Remember you would not have job without management.

 

[Exskydiverdrivr]

Quote-Remember you would not have job without management.

Remember management would not have a job without you.

 

[pilotyip]

exsky, yes they would. You can always get a management job doing anything with a Harvard MBA, they would just move to another $XXM job

 

[Benhuntn]

NWA seems to have a pretty good scam going. They have canceled 600 flights in the last 4 days due to an unusually high sick call rate by the pilots.

 

[DougCorp-9]

Sorry but I was brought up with a different work ethic and I won't compromise that for anybody or anything. If you want a raise then you put your best foot forward and show that you can do your job better than the next guy. That's the way it's done in the real world. This us vs. them mentallity, and we gotta make em bleed to show we mean business is one of the big reasons organized labor is a dying breed in this country.

We sit here and organize slowdowns etc. that do nothing but screw our passengers for our own personal gain. Then we picket and expect the publics sympathy for our cause ?? Give me a break.

Let us know when the VP of flight ops just gives you a raise because you are doing a good job. How long have you been in this industry junior?

 

[twepilot]

. How long have you been in this industry junior?[/quote]

Classic Flightinfo.

RV

 

[BOOZENEWS]

When its contract time and if your looking for a lousy raise and horrible work rules, the above work ethic is the way to go.

OK then, well maybe I'd then give them a few weeks notice and state in no uncertain terms that IF they don't reach an agreement in XXX days THEN we well use more fuel. In other words give them a chance to do the right thing but make it clear what will happen if they do not! Pretty simple!

 

[DrewBlows]

exsky, yes they would. You can always get a management job doing anything with a Harvard MBA, they would just move to another $XXM job

A significant number of pilots could replace their income and improve their quality of life immediately at Home Depot, Lowes, or Menards. Most pilots have a college education, and many have the wherewithal and/or experience to excel in the corporate world. Management's threats to shut down companies over what pilots make is laughable. If corporate America wants to hire executives who take profitable companies into bankruptcy, we have much bigger problems in this country than airline pilot's pay and work rules.

 

[vtwo]

when the company can no longer control it's employee's it will fail. one way to keep control is to keep them happy. IE. work rules, QOL, pay and benefits.
with out the back bone of the company (employee's) the the mind ( managers) of the company is worthless.

 

[RJP]

Also run the APU instead of using ground for AC and elec when at the gate.

APU? We'd cave for some of those.

 

[pilotyip]

Drewblows I go back to an old post. My brother a mid level manager with GM does not make 6 figures, he has master's in business and nearly 30 years of service at GM. It is considered a good job by most. Airline pilots make more than that. Maybe this thread, or someplace else there was news article that said pilots now have to live on 182K/ yr. in stead of 250K/kr. 182K is still a fantastic income. Few pilots could go anywhere else and make that money.

 

[thruthemurk]

..... Maybe this thread, or someplace else there was news article that said pilots now have to live on 182K/ yr. in stead of 250K/kr. 182K is still a fantastic income. Few pilots could go anywhere else and make that money.

Including over 90% of airline jobs currently available. That 182K number is an absolute crock - MOST airline pilots flying today will never see it.

Lets include all of the regional jobs which now comprise (Only a GUESS) as much as 20,000 of the total - the vast majority make less than 100,000 with the majority less than 50,000.

Excluding SW, FEDEX and UPS (<10,000 pilots) most of the majors pay junk for the first several years. 10 year narrowbody FO's at UAL, AA, USAir, NW all make less than 100,000.

Sad but true
Murk