A very effective alternative to a strike

[pilotyip]

exsky, yes they would. You can always get a management job doing anything with a Harvard MBA, they would just move to another $XXM job

 

[Benhuntn]

NWA seems to have a pretty good scam going. They have canceled 600 flights in the last 4 days due to an unusually high sick call rate by the pilots.

 

[DougCorp-9]

Sorry but I was brought up with a different work ethic and I won't compromise that for anybody or anything. If you want a raise then you put your best foot forward and show that you can do your job better than the next guy. That's the way it's done in the real world. This us vs. them mentallity, and we gotta make em bleed to show we mean business is one of the big reasons organized labor is a dying breed in this country.

We sit here and organize slowdowns etc. that do nothing but screw our passengers for our own personal gain. Then we picket and expect the publics sympathy for our cause ?? Give me a break.

Let us know when the VP of flight ops just gives you a raise because you are doing a good job. How long have you been in this industry junior?

 

[twepilot]

. How long have you been in this industry junior?[/quote]

Classic Flightinfo.

RV

 

[BOOZENEWS]

When its contract time and if your looking for a lousy raise and horrible work rules, the above work ethic is the way to go.

OK then, well maybe I'd then give them a few weeks notice and state in no uncertain terms that IF they don't reach an agreement in XXX days THEN we well use more fuel. In other words give them a chance to do the right thing but make it clear what will happen if they do not! Pretty simple!

 

[DrewBlows]

exsky, yes they would. You can always get a management job doing anything with a Harvard MBA, they would just move to another $XXM job

A significant number of pilots could replace their income and improve their quality of life immediately at Home Depot, Lowes, or Menards. Most pilots have a college education, and many have the wherewithal and/or experience to excel in the corporate world. Management's threats to shut down companies over what pilots make is laughable. If corporate America wants to hire executives who take profitable companies into bankruptcy, we have much bigger problems in this country than airline pilot's pay and work rules.

 

[vtwo]

when the company can no longer control it's employee's it will fail. one way to keep control is to keep them happy. IE. work rules, QOL, pay and benefits.
with out the back bone of the company (employee's) the the mind ( managers) of the company is worthless.

 

[RJP]

Also run the APU instead of using ground for AC and elec when at the gate.

APU? We'd cave for some of those.

 

[pilotyip]

Drewblows I go back to an old post. My brother a mid level manager with GM does not make 6 figures, he has master's in business and nearly 30 years of service at GM. It is considered a good job by most. Airline pilots make more than that. Maybe this thread, or someplace else there was news article that said pilots now have to live on 182K/ yr. in stead of 250K/kr. 182K is still a fantastic income. Few pilots could go anywhere else and make that money.

 

[thruthemurk]

..... Maybe this thread, or someplace else there was news article that said pilots now have to live on 182K/ yr. in stead of 250K/kr. 182K is still a fantastic income. Few pilots could go anywhere else and make that money.

Including over 90% of airline jobs currently available. That 182K number is an absolute crock - MOST airline pilots flying today will never see it.

Lets include all of the regional jobs which now comprise (Only a GUESS) as much as 20,000 of the total - the vast majority make less than 100,000 with the majority less than 50,000.

Excluding SW, FEDEX and UPS (<10,000 pilots) most of the majors pay junk for the first several years. 10 year narrowbody FO's at UAL, AA, USAir, NW all make less than 100,000.

Sad but true
Murk

 

[pilotyip]

but all the pilots who were bypassed by or elected not to pursue UAL, AA, USAir, NW all make well over 100K flying as narrow body Captain at JB, AirTran, Frontier, and Spirit. If they are stuck after 10 yrs as a narrow body F/O there were other opportunites available. This is still a great career if you like to be around airplanes.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

SaabSlime,

As a pilot’s how do you measure that you’re doing your the job better job than the next guy?? Does it come down to a funny PA, a better approach, a smooth landing or burning less gas? Do those add up to a better pay rate?

I don’t know how long you’ve been in the industry, but your nice guy approach will get you killed at the negotiating table. We tried that approach here at APA the last 10 years and it’s resulted in a race for the bottom. Luckily we are now cleaning house.

Management will give you a nice big smile, put a big arm around you, and then knife you in the back with their other hand.

KNOW THE RULES OF OUR GAME:

1) Management and labor are not on the same team. We have different goals and are responsible to different groups of people.
2) Management wants you to do your job for less – even now at our current rock bottom prices if you let them.
3) Management will never willingly sit down and give you a raise. They only respond to fiscal and public pressure.
4) Playing nice guy results in longer and longer contracts. The end result of this is keeping it out of your pocket and in their as long as possible.
5) Management is adept at playing labor groups against one another.

Never forget that you are labor – not management. The next few years will get ugly as we try to get back what we lost. You need to take off the rose colored glasses. Unionism might be dying in other parts of the work force but it is very much alive in our industry.

Please read – Flying The Line.

AA767AV8TOR

In order to get back what we lost we need to add the final element. The lost element. Politics.

In real estate it is location. In labor/management it is politics: local and national.

If you do not engage in the political arenea then you are wearing a ball gag and leather zipper mask.

The most effective method at the negotiating table is a strike. To shut the company down and stop the flow of cash.

Until you grasp this concept management will pull your gimp leash until you can't stand it anymore then they will yank it some more....

Here is the national:
There are three members on the national mediation board. One is pro labor the other two are pro company. It is 2 against one in favor of management.

The members of the nmb are appointed by the President of the USA.

If you want to defend and protect this profession: If you want to still try and make this a career then we need a president that will appoint two pro labor members to the nmb.

Here is the local:
When your union leadership conducts an LEC meeting, then you attend. When they communicate you educate and ask questions and offer ideas.

When your pilot group does informational picketing you show up with a dusted off hat. You don't come up with weak excuses, like I need a nap, I have an appointment, I am buying a car/house, my family needs me... unless of course the status quo is fine. If you like the ball gag, zipper mask and leash then be the gimps we are....

 

[Clyde Frog]

SaabSlime,

As a pilot’s how do you measure that you’re doing your the job better job than the next guy?? Does it come down to a funny PA, a better approach, a smooth landing or burning less gas? Do those add up to a better pay rate?

I don’t know how long you’ve been in the industry, but your nice guy approach will get you killed at the negotiating table. We tried that approach here at APA the last 10 years and it’s resulted in a race for the bottom. Luckily we are now cleaning house.

Management will give you a nice big smile, put a big arm around you, and then knife you in the back with their other hand.

KNOW THE RULES OF OUR GAME:

1) Management and labor are not on the same team. We have different goals and are responsible to different groups of people.
2) Management wants you to do your job for less – even now at our current rock bottom prices if you let them.
3) Management will never willingly sit down and give you a raise. They only respond to fiscal and public pressure.
4) Playing nice guy results in longer and longer contracts. The end result of this is keeping it out of your pocket and in their as long as possible.
5) Management is adept at playing labor groups against one another.

Never forget that you are labor – not management. The next few years will get ugly as we try to get back what we lost. You need to take off the rose colored glasses. Unionism might be dying in other parts of the work force but it is very much alive in our industry.

Please read – Flying The Line.

AA767AV8TOR

Excellent post, i couldn't agree more.

Those of you with the high morals and work ethic need to wake the hell up. Hard work and dedication are NOT rewarded in this industry.

Management at ANY airline is not going to spend one extra cent to fix a problem that does not exist.

Want a fair contract? No favors, no waivers, no extra trips and write up mechanical issues when necessary.

 

[Clyde Frog]

things like this make my blood boil. Rogue idiots working counter to the work of their own union. What do you expect the response will be from mgmnt. when you ask for a raise?

RV

Don't you work for airtran?

How's that tactic working for you guys? Has the company opened up their wallets to reward you for pushing all those wheelchairs, taxiing on one engine and calling operations for service items?

 

[737 Pylt]

Hmmmmm......Let's see......
Walks like a chuck, quacks, definately like a chuck.....Slams Air Tran, definately like a chuck.....
Ding Ding Ding Ding......
Welcome back chuck/einstein/lawman

Don't you work for airtran?

Don't you work for Midwest?
HA HA HA HA HA HA

Based on the following, you better PRAY Air Tran bails your pathetic airline from the trash dumpster!

Midwest reported second-quarter earnings of $4.9 million, a 44.6% drop from the $8.8 million profit posted during the same period a year ago.

How's that tactic working for you guys? Has the company opened up their wallets to reward you for pushing all those wheelchairs, taxiing on one engine and calling operations for service items?

I'd say its helping out their bottom numbers alot better than Midwest.....
But then again, you'll just deny being chucky! Eh sport?

737

 

[Clyde Frog]

I could give a crap less about midwest or airtran for that matter. who the hell is chuck?

 

[Angus]

People aren't listening.....

I don’t know how long you’ve been in the industry, but your nice guy approach will get you killed at the negotiating table.

KNOW THE RULES OF OUR GAME:

1) Management and labor are not on the same team. We have different goals and are responsible to different groups of people.
2) Management wants you to do your job for less – even now at our current rock bottom prices if you let them.
3) Management will never willingly sit down and give you a raise. They only respond to fiscal and public pressure.
4) Playing nice guy results in longer and longer contracts. The end result of this is keeping it out of your pocket and in their as long as possible.
5) Management is adept at playing labor groups against one another.
AA767AV8TOR

I edited it down.... but that was so good and so true.... that it needed reposting AGAIN... and AGAIN until every line Pilot out there gets it.

 

[waveflyer]

We don't get paid a market wage. We get paid where we take a stand.

Management coming after regional pilots should teach all of us that we will never make a LOW enough amount.

I find it hilarious that we apologize for $182k/year. 7 years ago- everyone was apologizing for $300k. Now look at us.

The difference between us and a pilot from the 60's is that they DID NOT APOLOGIZE. They made $500k/year in today's money- and never thought once that they didn't earn it. They respected aviation- and thought that an airline pilot deserved a certain station in life. But they also were closer to the 30's when pilots were getting reamed at the expense of the rich. They knew what they had to do. It starts with respecting yourself... Not everyone can do what we do- or would want to. We could double our wage with any decent tip jar- or by adding a dollar per hour to the price of a ticket.

It ends with what Rez said. GET INVOLVED. Your paycheck is not your birthright.

 

[pilotyip]

Here is a great idea lets go back to the ear of regulation in the 60's where those wages exisited. Only thing is about 50% pilot will have to give up there jobs. Great for those who keep them, too bad I got my for those who don't have jobs. I mean after all the passenger has nothing to do with our wages. They are a mandate from some thrid party source.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Here is a great idea lets go back to the ear of regulation in the 60's where those wages exisited. Only thing is about 50% pilot will have to give up there jobs. Great for those who keep them, too bad I got my for those who don't have jobs. I mean after all the passenger has nothing to do with our wages. They are a mandate from some thrid party source.

Yip-de-dip-de-do-

No one is advocating going back to the 60's. Ok, well maybe some are....

The point is to understand that activism is required in the Air Line Pilot Profession.

The new kids coming on line look at me like I've got three heads when I tell them about how intergrated politics is with their new career...

They don't get it....yet. From their perspective, what is the problem... they are shiney brand new first officers soon to be Captains.... Their goals are being obtained.

The sooner they realize that they have to play politics the sooner they and we will be effective...

 

[-9Capt]

We don't get paid a market wage. We get paid where we take a stand.

Management coming after regional pilots should teach all of us that we will never make a LOW enough amount.

I find it hilarious that we apologize for $182k/year. 7 years ago- everyone was apologizing for $300k. Now look at us.

The difference between us and a pilot from the 60's is that they DID NOT APOLOGIZE. They made $500k/year in today's money- and never thought once that they didn't earn it. They respected aviation- and thought that an airline pilot deserved a certain station in life. But they also were closer to the 30's when pilots were getting reamed at the expense of the rich. They knew what they had to do. It starts with respecting yourself... Not everyone can do what we do- or would want to. We could double our wage with any decent tip jar- or by adding a dollar per hour to the price of a ticket.

It ends with what Rez said. GET INVOLVED. Your paycheck is not your birthright.

I'm glad to see someone still gets it.

 

[HA25]

We don't get paid a market wage. We get paid where we take a stand.

Management coming after regional pilots should teach all of us that we will never make a LOW enough amount.

I find it hilarious that we apologize for $182k/year. 7 years ago- everyone was apologizing for $300k. Now look at us.

The difference between us and a pilot from the 60's is that they DID NOT APOLOGIZE. They made $500k/year in today's money- and never thought once that they didn't earn it. They respected aviation- and thought that an airline pilot deserved a certain station in life. But they also were closer to the 30's when pilots were getting reamed at the expense of the rich. They knew what they had to do. It starts with respecting yourself... Not everyone can do what we do- or would want to. We could double our wage with any decent tip jar- or by adding a dollar per hour to the price of a ticket.

It ends with what Rez said. GET INVOLVED. Your paycheck is not your birthright.

can I get an amen!

 

[waveflyer]

Yip- I just don't agree that the ship swims or sinks based on pilot pay. I think it can sink when i stop giving a damn about the company i work for. I'd love to see the exact percentage of an airline ticket goes to the pilots on any one flight.

I did get into flying b/c i like it. I love it. AND i got into this for the respect, money, and prestige- I have the honesty to admit it, and i get each of that to some extent. But here's the deal... No other person will argue FOR us. They're busy arguing for themselves. Noone cares about our plight. They laugh at us for ALLOWING our companies and government to take advantage of us. Our contracts ARE earned. Support your union with more than your words.

Let it sink in that management at EVERY regional airline has come to their pilots for concessions since 9/11. You will never make a LOW enough amount for management to not be opportunistic IF they think they can get a pay decrease out of you. It's up to us to stick up for us. It's a very easy concept.

Adding $1 for each pilot per hour per seat would double captain wages and triple FO wages. AT WHAT POINT DO YOU JUST NOT CARE ABOUT MANAGEMENT'S PROBLEMS AND REALIZE THAT WE ARE WORTH AN EXTRA $8/ TICKET ON A TRANSCON FLIGHT THAT ALREADY COST SEVERAL HUNDRED DOLLARS> DO YOU REALLY THINK PEOPLE WILL STOP TRAVELING ALTOGETHER ? Most estimates believe that air travel will increase at least 50% by 2012. Combine that with an impending pilot shortage and the time is now to begin negotiations for new GREAT CONTRACTS. Set the stage for 2009 when we have a labor friendly NMB. We've PAID THE PIPER BIG TIME_ and AIR TRAVEL HAS RECOVERED AND THEN SOME- NOW IT's TIME FOR A RETURN ON OUR INVESTMENT's.

Get involved.

 

[pilotyip]

Wave? WTF. Basic economics if you raise the price of a commodity with a substitute, the demand for that commodity will decrease. Passengers buy seats as a commodity. People will travel, but some will elect to do it in their car, on the bus or even the train. Pay pilots more, fewer riders, need for fewer pilots. However the pilots who keep their jobs and seats will make more money. All airlines raise fares it is anti-trust, but the results are the same fewer jobs. BTW how are you doing on your quest of respect?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Wave? WTF. Basic economics if you raise the price of a commodity with a substitute, the demand for that commodity will decrease. Passengers buy seats as a commodity. People will travel, but some will elect to do it in their car, on the bus or even the train. Pay pilots more, fewer riders, need for fewer pilots. However the pilots who keep their jobs and seats will make more money. All airlines raise fares it is anti-trust, but the results are the same fewer jobs.

It is all part of the puzzle. There is no one thing that makes or breaks the economy. Labor rates is one... not the only one.

BTW how are you doing on your quest of respect?

My respect comes from within.....

 

[HA25]

Yip- I just don't agree that the ship swims or sinks based on pilot pay

Especially if the pilot unions all do their job and keep ALL airline wages up at a certain level.. It then takes the pay/productivity variable out of the profit equation as the managers of the airline will all be dealing with the same costs on labor.

The problem lies in that airline managers (greedy SOB's that they are), know that they can't do much about fuel costs (besides take a bet and hedge), and can't do anything about airplane/parts costs.. so they decide to squeeze labor for their profit margins. So you have to decide, it's us or them? Who gets a bigger piece of the pie? Should they get millions in bonuses or should we get millions in raises?

 

[pilotyip]

Respect

My respect comes from within.....

Correct Rez that is where it should always come from. And if you have that you may find you also get respect from other sources. But if you don't it is not a big deal because you know where your respect is.

 

[waveflyer]

Well said Rez-

Respect starts within- But make no mistake- it ends in a manifestation out in the real world. You can give all the credit to how you feel about yourself on the inside- but if you fail to create a world outside of you that reflects the truth within- I doubt you really are that advanced internally. "One has to create the situation around oneself, so that one does not have to say 'I am the awakened person'. If one had to say such a thing and express it verbally, one would not be awakened."

I really do think that any lack of respect in our world is that WE have allowed our contracts and station in life to deteriorate. All your half-truth misunderstandings of economics are moot if you truly believe that you are WORTH more than how we have been treated. Everyone has their line-- You can justify yours being where yours is however you would like. I respect aviators- and I believe that we should be doing better financially than your average real estate agent- and the truth is...we're not.

You see it time and time again-- Everyone with a contract worth anything comes under fire for that contract--- Especially during the negotiation. But in the end- People only respect you when you stand up for yourself. People only respect the contract that you actually get.

My happiness isn't determined by this career- neither is my self-worth- But that does not mean that i will ever buy into management's argument's for why i am worth less as a pilot than they are as an organizer. I have my own argument's for why i am worth more- and i'll always stick to them. They have enough people arguing their points.

btw- it's not about me. But yes- I get respect in everything that i do. I make it a point to earn it- and i hope i always will.

 

[waveflyer]

Going back to passenger demand- You think that demand will significantly decrease if you raise ticket prices $1/hour- The other aspect that you are ignoring is that if we weren't really good at our jobs- there would be NO demand at all for the ticket.

ALPA and all the unions have worked tirelessly to make aviation safer- and that has led to increased demand from the masses- We did it for our own good- but that increased confidence increased airline traffic and business. Can't you see that it takes a lot of talent, skill, experience, and education to do this work well. For many of us, it took an awful lot of investment as well.

How much demand would there be for our product if we weren't as professional as we are? How comfortable with our product would the masses be if we did not dress, act, speak, study and perform as professionals? Passengers have put a great amount of trust in us- and every winter we prove worthy of that trust. Every thunderstorm spring and summer we instill confidence in the passengers that we will take care of them.

Do professionals that increase this demand just grow on trees? Come out of thin air? Or should they be paid a professionals salary?

You talk of ticket prices as if all the work that we've all done over the years has been worthless... Where does your line of thinking stop? Wouldn't it increase demand if we were paid nothing? Wouldn't that be much better for aviation? I say no b/c you wouldn't have professionals signing up for work that pays nothing. We're seeing it now-- $2000 to instruct at ATP- bonuses for regional FO's--- I think it's time for you management types to realize that maybe airline pilots were making closer to a market wage than you want to admit.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

waveflyer-

Agreed. First point... too many pilots (people really) are conditional or environmental... if people treat them well, then they feel well. If the wx is bad then they feel bad. So.... when they take paycuts, lose thier pension and feel disrespected professionally they act accordingly....

Correcting the above is the first step...

Now.. once respect comes from within, now one can work effectively to effect positive change.

Just because my source of respect comes from within doesn't mean management can walk all over me and treat me poorly...

It simply means that I can be issue oreintated..


When management wants paycuts I don't feel that if I can only get management to repsect me then they will see that paycuts are not needed... This is a major flaw with ALPA haters. Becuase they are pissed off that ALPA is not convincing management that pilots are the most wonderful and apperciative employees out there... I mean after all we control the jets!

You talk of ticket prices as if all the work that we've all done over the years has been worthless... Where does your line of thinking stop? Wouldn't it increase demand if we were paid nothing? Wouldn't that be much better for aviation? I say no b/c you wouldn't have professionals signing up for work that pays nothing. We're seeing it now-- $2000 to instruct at ATP- bonuses for regional FO's--- I think it's time for you management types to realize that maybe airline pilots were making closer to a market wage than you want to admit.

Agreed! As professionals in a blue collar hourly environement we are at a disadvantage. I believe management will always take advantage of our professionalism. If we were to shuck professionalism to make a point it would be detrimental to management but even worse to us.....

The problem is.... as this demand and need for pilots continues we will see management offering lots of bait...in the form of training pay, hotels, signing bonuses, free toasters... etc... anything to get the suckers in the door... but after they are hired.. when they go on the payroll then it all changes.. almost like a deal with the devil...

To change hourly rates is the taboo of the business world. Management would rather sleep with thier mother then riase labor costs. (don't worry..all is negotiable) Managment will press forward with schemes like MPL licenses and hire foreign crews to staff our jets... Yes.. managmeent will go to the DHS and DOL and say.. we can't get pilots to fly our jets we need work visa's and waivers so we can hire Asains, Middle Easterners, Old East Bloc, Africans and S Americans... they will go thru all of this before they will agree to raise our hourly rates...

Do you honestly think management for a US company sees a difference between an Indian call center and an Indian pilot? They are both controlled labor costs.

That is why we work together to as a group to better our careers....and we do it by taking our respect-from-within to the table and working to effect positive change...