A.T.I. Pilots vote down Mgmnt's "Final Offer"

[GogglesPisano]

D-Angelo:

How many non-union airlines are decent places to work? I can name 2: JetBlue and Skywest (on a relative level with other regionals)

OK, that's 2. Out of how many dozens of non-union airlines.

With the exception of JB, all of the best places to work are union.

Doesn't that tell you anything?

 

[Ty Webb]

Duh-Anglo:

Someone really got inside of your head and packed it full of sh!t. You are living in about 1981, which is probably the year you were born.

Real wages of pilots have decreased drastically, and actual pilot wages really have little to do with the viability of the company . . . . much more of the success or failure of the airline has to do with decisions that are made in the boardroom- leases, routes, yields, forecasting and planning.

You seem to know very little about the business, you just basically spout all of this nonsense about your willingness to work for less . . . . no one lives in a vacuum, and some day, when you grow up, you will realize this, but until then, do yourself a favor and quit repeating these tired lines like Jonathan Ornstein's demented ventriloquist dummy.


.

 

[D'Angelo]

D-Angelo:

How many non-union airlines are decent places to work? I can name 2: JetBlue and Skywest (on a relative level with other regionals)

OK, that's 2. Out of how many dozens of non-union airlines.

With the exception of JB, all of the best places to work are union.

Doesn't that tell you anything?

Thats because once you have a union getting rid of them is darn near impossible. They had valid reasons for unionizing all that time ago. Those reasons no longer apply to todays market.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Thats because once you have a union getting rid of them is darn near impossible. They had valid reasons for unionizing all that time ago. Those reasons no longer apply to todays market.

If it were up to the free market (without collective bargaining) we'd be making half of what we make now and enjoying 6 days off/mo.

You'd be happy with that?

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Thats because once you have a union getting rid of them is darn near impossible. They had valid reasons for unionizing all that time ago. Those reasons no longer apply to todays market.

One of the reasons our forefathers organized is so that we, as a group, wouldn't be cutting each other's throats just to stay employed.

Why does that "no longer apply to todays market?"

 

[D'Angelo]

One of the reasons our forefathers organized is so that we, as a group, wouldn't be cutting each other's throats just to stay employed.

Why does that "no longer apply to todays market?"

what good does it do when management can simply start a new non union airline anyway? The courts have already ruled seperate certificates by the same parent company can be considered sepereate companies. A union does no good if people can start new certificates anyway. Its already been proven that people don't fear the consequences(which are none btw)

 

[D'Angelo]

If it were up to the free market (without collective bargaining) we'd be making half of what we make now and enjoying 6 days off/mo.

You'd be happy with that?

I wouldnt be happy with it but I would be doing something else. Most people would not be happy with it and therefore would do something else. If enough people did this then the conditions would have to improve. If enough did not then it means the majority is happy. Thats how a free market works. Unions force people into things. A big reason so many people put up with the lower pay at first in this biz is because the light at the end of the tunnel. Thinking the major will be there waiting for them with the big bucks, etc. If there was no light at the end of the tunnel I guarantee people wouldn't be doing the job in nearly the numbers.

 

[canadflyau]

Instead of getting whats fair

Who is best to determine what is fair? Please define fair?

They had valid reasons for unionizing all that time ago. Those reasons no longer apply to todays market.

What reasons that once applied have gone away that remove the need for a union?

Not that I expect much from D, but here is a hypothetical for ya:
Lets say I work for a company that is a mere 3.7% the size of SWA. But if it were the size of SWA, the company proportionally would have made $956 million dollars in profit. The pilots currently fly for 20% below industry standard pay, but have great insurance, and some decent work-rules. The company wants to expand with the new ownership and claims that they no longer can afford the pilots pay. So they force a vote on a contract with an additional 10% guarantee decrease and major cut in health-care as the only means to survive and have continued "viability"...

Would I, as you put, it be part of:

Another example of unions leading good companies into the recycle bin. ummm ya unemployment is really better than a fair contract.

in this hypothetical situation???

 

[bocefus]

20% below "industry standard", Interesting benchmark.

 

[coffeedude]

I wouldnt be happy with it but I would be doing something else. Most people would not be happy with it and therefore would do something else. If enough people did this then the conditions would have to improve. If enough did not then it means the majority is happy. Thats how a free market works. Unions force people into things. A big reason so many people put up with the lower pay at first in this biz is because the light at the end of the tunnel. Thinking the major will be there waiting for them with the big bucks, etc. If there was no light at the end of the tunnel I guarantee people wouldn't be doing the job in nearly the numbers.

Why is there a light at the end of the tunnel?

Maybe the unity of most pilots turned it on!!!

 

[GogglesPisano]

Originally Posted by GogglesPisano
If it were up to the free market (without collective bargaining) we'd be making half of what we make now and enjoying 6 days off/mo.

You'd be happy with that?

I wouldnt be happy with it but I would be doing something else. .

You've just admitted you're still in this profession because of collective bargaining.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Who is best to determine what is fair? Please define fair?


What reasons that once applied have gone away that remove the need for a union?

Not that I expect much from D, but here is a hypothetical for ya:
Lets say I work for a company that is a mere 3.7% the size of SWA. But if it were the size of SWA, the company proportionally would have made $956 million dollars in profit. The pilots currently fly for 20% below industry standard pay, but have great insurance, and some decent work-rules. The company wants to expand with the new ownership and claims that they no longer can afford the pilots pay. So they force a vote on a contract with an additional 10% guarantee decrease and major cut in health-care as the only means to survive and have continued "viability"...

Would I, as you put, it be part of: in this hypothetical situation???

that sounds familiar, where have I seen this before??? :angryfire

 

[Green]

This message is hidden because D'Angelo is on your ignore list.</SPAN>

New day...655 posts of the same crap. :smash:

Thanks man. I didn't realize that was an option. I think my blood pressure just dropped 20 points.

 

[JP4user]

Have none of you figured out D'Angelo is a management tool? I mean troll?

 

[PCL_128]

what good does it do when management can simply start a new non union airline anyway? The courts have already ruled seperate certificates by the same parent company can be considered sepereate companies. A union does no good if people can start new certificates anyway. Its already been proven that people don't fear the consequences(which are none btw)

This is what holding company scope is for. Mesaba has it, and it was just upheld by their bankruptcy judge. MAIR Holdings is unable to create a seperate company in order to get around the ALPA contract. The CHQ pilots also have this holding company language. Any airline that is owned by Republic Holdings must be flown by pilots on the same seniority list with the same contract. Why do you think the Mesa pilots accepted the horrible CBA that they have now? It's because they eliminated the threat of an alter-ego carrier being created again. How were these things made possible? By those evil, evil unions that you hate so much. All airlines don't have it yet, unfortunately, but they will eventually, and then the alter-ego threat will be a thing of the past. And yes, you can thank the unions for that.

 

[PHXFLYR]

its a big problem actually. A big reason why so many airlines are in trouble today. Instead of getting whats fair unions have to hold companies hostage and demand the world.

You're kidding me....right??? I mean, you can't be that stupid now, can you??


PHXFLYR

 

[D'Angelo]

You're kidding me....right??? I mean, you can't be that stupid now, can you??


PHXFLYR

I hear the same arguments, but its just a few extra dollars, it won't affect the bottom line blah blah. Fact is Delta pilots took those paycuts and those cuts alone save over 1 billion dollars a year. That means the union was robbing the company blind all those years. 1 billion a year certainly isnt something to sneeze at. Can be the difference between profitability and big losses. The problem with that contract is it can only be sustained when the company is wildy profitable. Guess what airlines aren't always wildly profitable. Thats why it is imperitive to have a contract in the middle and not an outlandish delta style contract.

 

[D'Angelo]

This is what holding company scope is for. Mesaba has it, and it was just upheld by their bankruptcy judge. MAIR Holdings is unable to create a seperate company in order to get around the ALPA contract. The CHQ pilots also have this holding company language. Any airline that is owned by Republic Holdings must be flown by pilots on the same seniority list with the same contract. Why do you think the Mesa pilots accepted the horrible CBA that they have now? It's because they eliminated the threat of an alter-ego carrier being created again. How were these things made possible? By those evil, evil unions that you hate so much. All airlines don't have it yet, unfortunately, but they will eventually, and then the alter-ego threat will be a thing of the past. And yes, you can thank the unions for that.

Yes some airlines have that fact is though the new union airlines that try and get brand scope will fail. Look at TSA they got Go-jets instead of scope. Any airline that demands scope and outlandish wages will probably have an alter-ego airline started. Thats the big problem with ALPA. They never have a vision for the future. They only look at the present and never look at the possibilities. They should have been working for the scope thing years ago. Sorry I forgot nothing is the unions fault. Its all the members fault because you can't blame national for anything. Aren't you guys the ones that say when a company fails you blame the leaders? Well when the union fails you also blame the head honchos. They failed to have a vision for the future and they are paying for it now. They refuse to adapt and if they do not they will be kicked off airline property one by one. Oh it will take years but it will happen if they don't do something besides status quo. Fee per departure task force? Sorry ALPO your about 10 years too late on that one.

 

[Ty Webb]

Duh-Anglo . . . . welcome to my Ignore List!

Fact is Delta pilots took those paycuts and those cuts alone save over 1 billion dollars a year. That means the union was robbing the company blind all those years.

Duh-Anglo . . . ever take o Logic class? Apparently not.

Maybe those greedy ol' Delta pilots should give up the OTHER billion dollars and work for FREE! Yeah! That's the ticket.

Duh-Anglo, I've met some stupid pilots in my life, but none were as stupid as you! You are obviously just a management troll on here to get his kicks by pissing off a bunch of pilots.

Welcome to my "Ignore" list, too. I'll bet you hold the record around here for being on the most Ignore lists.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Duh angelo, you gotta be kidding, right? Damn dude, enjoy that CRJ. Have you been beaten that badly that you now see it that way?

Wow! I try to avoid personal attacks, but well, you're stoopid.

 

[DwayneWorthless]

Another example of unions leading good companies into the recycle bin. ummm ya unemployment is really better than a fair contract. Too bad unions have absolutely no vision or solution for the future. They sit there and whine about negotiating in "good faith" That has got to be the most annoying term ive ever heard. They complain and complain yet never offer any solution

Hey... get back to washing my car and don't reprogram that doggone radio.. again

 

[D'Angelo]

Hey... get back to washing my car and don't reprogram that doggone radio.. again

haha kiss mine Dr Phil we will have you and your little mafia group off the property at comair one of these days. Oh ive spoke too much are you going to break my knee caps now?

 

[big pimpn']

Hey... get back to washing my car and don't reprogram that doggone radio.. again

Priceless!! LOL

 

[D'Angelo]

Duh angelo, you gotta be kidding, right? dang dude, enjoy that CRJ. Have you been beaten that badly that you now see it that way?

Wow! I try to avoid personal attacks, but well, you're stoopid.

The fact is there is a fine line between making a good living and a fair wage and crossing into the stratosphere with simply outrageous demands. Fact is if the pilots can give up 1 billion a year in savings and still be living the good life then the payscale was way out of whack. The problem is nothing is ever enough for the unions. The senority based payscale is simply retarded. Why not make the job start around 50k and top out around 150k instead of start at 25k and top out at 300k? That was the old days of course however it can serve as an example. Quit paying those old farts so much darn money. They work least yet make the most money. Simply ridiculous. People are whining about first year pay being so bad it all starts with senior guys taking more than their fair share of the pie. The should be taking an equal piece of the pie not trying to rob the company and the junior pilots blind.

 

[Captain Overs]

I'd sign that contract before MESA bids to do the flying for next to nothing. Those guys would fly a kite for a dollar an hour.

 

[81Horse]

D'Angelo, you're a troll. A troll and an idiot. Someone with your attitude about other pilots must be a royal pain in the a$$ to fly with.

You're the first person to make it onto my IGNORE list. Congrats!

 

[Bellerophon]

Watch out if you walk, it will not be long before the Challenge Air Cargo pilots show up.

 

[DwayneWorthless]

D'Angelo is an Intern. He's not a pilot. He was seen on a company computer jiber jabering about Anti ALPA stuff. Oh yeah, he's short too, about 5'2" with a big ole gut. Dang, this guy is only like 20 or 21 years old. What a loser. Now get back and do those wheels again. There is still brake dust on them.

 

[D'Angelo]

D'Angelo is an Intern. He's not a pilot. He was seen on a company computer jiber jabering about Anti ALPA stuff. Oh yeah, he's short too, about 5'2" with a big ole gut. Dang, this guy is only like 20 or 21 years old. What a loser. Now get back and do those wheels again. There is still brake dust on them.

get back to your tv show dr phil. A lot of pilots need therapy realizing how much money theyve wasted on alpo over the years. The realize they could have just bought cans of alpo dog food and got a better product. Oh well live and learn they all say. I most certainly do fly no management here I assure you

 

[gearjockey]

D'Angelo is an Intern. He's not a pilot. He was seen on a company computer jiber jabering about Anti ALPA stuff. Oh yeah, he's short too, about 5'2" with a big ole gut. Dang, this guy is only like 20 or 21 years old. What a loser. Now get back and do those wheels again. There is still brake dust on them.

I'm gonna be paying more attention to this guy. D'angelo: he's got your number. brake dust... haaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhaa! Looks like your propaganda really showed those guys at ASA. check out that strike vote tally noise beotch.