A Super Hornet's Nest

[flyin4pennies]

What ever!!!

You guys just keep flying the way you do and have your JAGs bail you out.

ba-bye

 

[chris69]

So many statistics, so little time. I've heard of a few carrier breaks being performed at Los Cruces before 9/11 and some rather low/fast flying over the dunes around El Centro, but the increased spotlight on Goshawks going into uncontrolled airfields and post 9/11 security issues have put a lid on most of that...as far as I've seen. On the fringes, or gray areas, of NATOPS, one man's flyby is another man's violation. Just depends what that man wears on his collar...and CNO must agree. SOP's have tightened tremendously. As for the "Prowler Incident" there is so much more to the story that will never see the light of day due to clasification, careers and, yes, media bias. Needless to say, from the primary sources I know, the godola was in the MTR, but was unable to be chummed properly due to publishing dates and distribution schdules. Objects can be within the MTR vertical limits as well, such as wires and towers, and while ridgeline crossings might seem like "flathatting" to the run of the mill civilian or reporter, some maneuvers do have tactical significance, "just in case." No, sometime the zero defect mentality gets a life of it's own and the unfortunate are just along for the ride. My take, count to ten before doing it and think of what you'd say in kakhi's or Charlie's on the carpet.

 

[NookyBooky]

It sucks that you have to play by the rules these days.....

Custom nose art is another sad loss.



Anybody who hasn't read "Yeager" is missing out on some sweet hotdogging stories.

Actually, Yeager can thank an incident very similar to this one for even having the opportunity to be the number one pilot for the X-1 program. Hoover was number one until his CO heard about a buzzing incident a few years earlier. Hoover admited to it and was cast to a supporting role instead. Just two passes over a small airport in a little midwestern town-that's why Yeager is famous and Hoover is not.

I still think this incident involving Webb is total bullsh*t though....

 

[Fury220]

What ever!!!

You guys just keep flying the way you do and have your JAGs bail you out.

ba-bye

You seem to have a knack for talking out of your anus.

 

[flyin4pennies]

No not really.
I guess I'm just sick of deployment after deployment having our biggest risk not being shot at but having some dudes breaking off the tanker, at night, in black-out ops, in a tight entry/exit corridor and not painting or seeing us. It happened in OJC, OEF, & OIF. I know that you guys have state-of-the-art radar, but three deployments in a row we had to take some sort of action, (lights or a break turn) to avoid being hit.

I respect the fact that you are locked and loaded for the fight, but there is a time and a place for it. Not at a small public airport, not in the driveway, and not where people can get hurt.

I didn't want to step on anyones toes.

Peace

 

[guppygoshawk]

No not really.
I guess I'm just sick of deployment after deployment having our biggest risk not being shot at but having some dudes breaking off the tanker, at night, in black-out ops, in a tight entry/exit corridor and not painting or seeing us. It happened in OJC, OEF, & OIF. I know that you guys have state-of-the-art radar, but three deployments in a row we had to take some sort of action, (lights or a break turn) to avoid being hit.

And you were flying?

 

[flyin4pennies]

No, I was walkin and some fighter guys almost walked into me!!!

Here's your sign.

I"m AFSOC EC-130 Flight Engineer

I don't post this because its not concidered (pilot) flight time.

 

[guppygoshawk]

No, I was walkin and some fighter guys almost walked into me!!!

Here's your sign.

I"m AFSOC EC-130 Flight Engineer

I don't post this because its not concidered (pilot) flight time.

I guess I should've written "And you were flying, what?"
Sorry you had trouble picking up on that.

About the comment of "Let you JAGs keep bailing you out", you obviously have no idea what you're talking about there.

Sorry someone made a semi-dynamic maneuver that scared you. Good thing you guys never screw up. Honestly, an entire deployment and the scariest moment was having to turn hard or turn your lights on?!?!? Wow.

 

[flyin4pennies]

You have not a clue what we do, but let me just say more times then not we're sitting ducks, slow and low and if the s**t hits the fan, we can't just pull a handle on our seats to get out of trouble.

I've been shot and hit. We are ALWAYS a bigger target then you. So next time you think that what your doing is dangerous look down and behind you as your beatin feet and chances are there's some dudes in a hurk prayin to GOD that "they" don't get lucky!!

 

[guppygoshawk]

I guess I'm just sick of deployment after deployment having our biggest risk not being shot at but having some dudes breaking off the tanker, at night, in black-out ops, in a tight entry/exit corridor and not painting or seeing us. It happened in OJC, OEF, & OIF. I know that you guys have state-of-the-art radar, but three deployments in a row we had to take some sort of action, (lights or a break turn) to avoid being hit.

Never said I did know what you do. Never said it wasn't dangerous. Just going off what you said. But thanks for thinking we just "pull the handle when s*** hits the fan." Shows you really have no clue what we do.

Listen buddy, I never said anything bad about you or your platform. I just started by asking what you were flying in. I was f-ing curious. I'm sorry that you've got some sort of complex or chip on your shoulder that makes you want to try and start a fight here.

 

[Fury220]

Listen buddy, I never said anything bad about you or your platform. I just started by asking what you were flying in. I was f-ing curious. I'm sorry that you've got some sort of complex or chip on your shoulder that makes you want to try and start a fight here.

SHACK, brotha.

 

[Flyingtoohigh]

I'm glad this guy isn't flying Hornets anymore. What about the civilian traffic at that airport? What about the CFI in the pattern repetitively muttering "left rudder, left rudder" to his 17-year-old student? See-and-avoid does not work well with Cessnas and closure rates exceeding 500 knots.

I did a short stint as a CFI at an Air Force base and I appreciate their professionalism and attention to safety.

Do something blatant and stupid; loose your wings.

 

[NookyBooky]

Do something blatant and stupid; loose your wings.

Today's blatantly stupid is yesterday's SOP.

 

[NookyBooky]

I still can't believe that this is what things have come to. A veteran Naval Aviator canned and labeled stupid for buzzing his hometown airport?

The pussifacation of America is making real progress these days. I'm begining to think Hillary has a real good chance in '08.

 

[Birdstrike]

I still can't believe that this is what things have come to. A veteran Naval Aviator canned and labeled stupid for buzzing his hometown airport?

I think we've established, if the stated facts are correct, that there was more involved here than just buzzing the airport. When I do 100 kts down the centerline at 100' and then turn 45 degrees and climb out at 500' per minute while waving to my wife at the fence and noticing that her car windows are down and its starting to rain..that's "buzzing the airport." This was something else entirely.

 

[SIG600]

I'm glad this guy isn't flying Hornets anymore. What about the civilian traffic at that airport? What about the CFI in the pattern repetitively muttering "left rudder, left rudder" to his 17-year-old student? See-and-avoid does not work well with Cessnas and closure rates exceeding 500 knots.

I did a short stint as a CFI at an Air Force base and I appreciate their professionalism and attention to safety.

Do something blatant and stupid; loose your wings.

Remember those words the next time you go trundeling through an active MOA with no regard to whats going on. I'm sure had their been anyone flailing around the pattern when said incident occured, tower would have provided separation or at least advisories.

 

[CFI4LIFE]

I'm sure had their been anyone flailing around the pattern when said incident occured, tower would have provided separation or at least advisories.

Not trying to step on your toes here, but thats not really correct. Its not the towers job to provide traffic separation or even advisories. The local controllers PRIMARY job is runway separation, traffic advisories is a secondary concern.

 

[SIG600]

Not trying to step on your toes here, but thats not really correct. Its not the towers job to provide traffic separation or even advisories. The local controllers PRIMARY job is runway separation, traffic advisories is a secondary concern.

Thanks, got a copy of the 7110 in my collection, along with a minor in Air Traffic Control.

 

[NookyBooky]

This argument is getting f*cking rediculous. Why don't we just paint all our military planes pink and change all the squadron insignias to Hello Kitty while we chastise vetaran combat pilot for buzzing (yes, I said BUZZING) his hometown airport. I mean think of the horror he could have caused: what if an EC-130 was in the pattern and the FE was forced to hit the light switch, or if a 172 had to do a risky turn of over 30 degrees, or some old fag down the road was pissed off by the noise coming from the airport, or, what if, just what if the tens of millions of dollars in avionics failed in the Hornet and the pilot was forced to rely on (gasp) .......his eyes?

 

[AD SUPT Hopeful]

This argument is getting f*cking rediculous. Why don't we just paint all our military planes pink and change all the squadron insignias to Hello Kitty while we chastise vetaran combat pilot for buzzing (yes, I said BUZZING) his hometown airport. I mean think of the horror he could have caused: what if an EC-130 was in the pattern and the FE was forced to hit the light switch, or if a 172 had to do a risky turn of over 30 degrees, or some old fag down the road was pissed off by the noise coming from the airport, or, what if, just what if the tens of millions of dollars in avionics failed in the Hornet and the pilot was forced to rely on (gasp) .......his eyes?

Out of curiosity, have you read FastCargo's post on page 1?

 

[NookyBooky]

Out of curiosity, have you read FastCargo's post on page 1?

Yes, I certainly have.

 

[stonewall]

Fellas, there's "crimes" and there's "mistakes." If you knowingly and willfully break a reg, well, that's a "crime" and you get no sympathy from me. You make a mistake, well, f*** it and let's move on.

When guys do this stuff it makes us all look bad. I'm all for pushing it up and having fun, but if we don't police our own someone WILL step in in and do it for us, and that will be ZERO F'ING fun for everyone involved. There's lots of fun to be had in fighters legally and lots of adrenaline/risk to be had...we don't need to manufacture it and play into the "dangerous" stereotype.

And before anyone fires off at my credentials...don't. Been there, done that. Still do.

 

[stonewall]

No, no, no (thankfully for my Air Force victims), and no. As long as you do a clearing turn in the bar/ready room/etc.... women have no effect, yeah right.



And to think, all those carrier breaks in class D. I'm grounding myself. dang Navy cowboys!

Uh, yes, yes, yes, and yes. Drank myself stupid, gambled, played crud, and sang dumb songs for years at Kun, Shaw and Eglin. F***, I just did it this past weekend at Nellis. Now, if someone got offended and cried about it, we coulda been statistics. But it never stopped us, and still doesn't. We're a long way from the lingerie shows of the late 80s/early 90s, but it still ain't no pus* game.

 

[Fury220]

Ditto on the "Crimes vs. Mistakes" bit. The problem comes when pilots knowingly commit a "crime" yet aren't prepared to suffer the consequences. We must aspire to a high level of personal accountability and be personally prepared for what can happen if we knowingly violate the trust our government places in us every time they "hand us the keys to the jet."

Those who think they can separate their decisions from their personal responsibility as a member of the warrior class are in for a rude awakening. I know that times are changing...call it what you want, but I call it reality.

 

[SUNDOWN]

An interesting thread. It is unfourtunate that this situation occured. One question, why wouldn't it be prohibited for any a/c (mil or civ) to pull this stunt at a civillian airport. I hear a lot of fellas saying he should be cut some slack because of the nature of the fighter community. Almost all of the f-teeners I've met are calculating individuals who carefully balance risk and reward. I don't think Ive ever met one who was a wild and out of control dude.

Fury posted
Those who think they can separate their decisions from their personal responsibility as a member of the warrior class are in for a rude awakening.

This is a very good point. Would we cut a SEAL slack for waving his gun around or whooping someones tail for no reason. Now I am no "warrior", but it appears the best ones are often the good descision makers.

No flames, just an observation.

 

[stonewall]

Well said, Sundown.

 

[Vector4fun]

Guys,

Speaking as a Tower controller who loves a carrier break (when traffic is light) as much as anybody, it really is a very different world post 9/11. Four f-16s do a polite (1000' x 300kts) flyby of downtown on Armed Forces Day or whatever now generate dozens of panicked phone calls from citizens (idiots) who think their home town is under attack. I'm not kidding. One dummy in a Sterman buzzes his buddy's house and lets out 5 seconds smoke, and a chemical attack is reported. Many of you wouldn't believe the kinds of reports the Police Dept has to run down lately. (They often call us when it involves an aircraft.)

Chicken Little deserves a medal for bravery compaired to some of these folks.

Anyway, keep it in mind....

 

[Fury220]

An interesting thread. It is unfourtunate that this situation occured. One question, why wouldn't it be prohibited for any a/c (mil or civ) to pull this stunt at a civillian airport. I hear a lot of fellas saying he should be cut some slack because of the nature of the fighter community. Almost all of the f-teeners I've met are calculating individuals who carefully balance risk and reward. I don't think Ive ever met one who was a wild and out of control dude.

Furry posted
Those who think they can separate their decisions from their personal responsibility as a member of the warrior class are in for a rude awakening.

This is a very good point. Would we cut a SEAL slack for waving his gun around or whooping someones tail for no reason. Now I am no "warrior", but it appears the best ones are often the good descision makers.

No flames, just an observation.

Yes, well said.

But please...only one "R." Thanks.

 

[SIG600]

Guys,

Speaking as a Tower controller who loves a carrier break (when traffic is light) as much as anybody,

How fast is too fast in your opinion when traffic is light, and whats a good non-chalant way of asking a tower controller for a crap-hot break at bumblef*ck municiple airport?

/end thread jack



The opinions shared, actually are fairly eye opening as to how things have changed over the years from the old crusty guys to the new "SNAP's" (thanks Fury)...

 

[Vector4fun]

How fast is too fast in your opinion when traffic is light, and whats a good non-chalant way of asking a tower controller for a shoot-hot break at bumblef*ck municiple airport?

/end thread jack

Well, many years ago, I saw two Marine F-4s enter the break with an ARTS groundspeed of 600 kts. (Ouch!) This at an airport that saw it's fair share of military ops on a normal day. They generated about 30 noise complaints in 30 seconds, set off about 150 car alarms in the terminal parking lot, and had golfers across the street diving into sand traps....

That's probably a bit over the top.... :laugh:

I'd consider the situation/location. Nobody probably much cares at MAF, 10 miles outside town. But doing it at a civilian field with little military traffic and civilian housing close by is probably not in everybody's best interest.

Similarly, I saw some BUFF drivers doing overheads (wtf?) into Biggs field one night at 3:00 am after a Roving Sands exercise. Now, folks along Dyer St. probably would have loved the show at 3:00 pm, but they were pretty pissed about being awakened at that hour.

We allow them here when traffic permits, but we just try to be a bit judicious, and you'll probably be asked to break at 1000' AGL.