A Question for Blue-Aid Drinkers?

[FlyingFarmer]

Dizel-la

-8

You better reload the KNS and think about what you'll be doing to those that will come after you.

What will life be like at the regionals, not to mention safety-
when all the low life management scumbags adopt this
idiotic policy --

I'll say it one more time-------

We don't live in a vacuum.



and just for the record......

Jetblue guys DO clean their own airplanes.....


BAHHH HHAAAAAA HHAAAAAAA HHHAAAAAAA


not that I've NEVER done
that to help the FA's on a
quick turn--but pilots NOT
cleaning is frowned upon--

 

[JakeSnake]

Modifying the 8 in 24 in such a manner will lead to the eventual elimination of the rule. This is a pandora's box that I don't think we really want to open.

Just think JB starts doing these 1 day transcon turns, with the proviso that it is "daylight only"--so what if you are delayed in LGB and winds aloft are stronger than forecast, and somewhere over Illinois--oh oh the sun sets! Are you going to emergency descend to land at the nearest suitable? Of course not, and don't think the company and FAA won't notice---pretty soon, this isn't just a "daylight only" exemption.

And don't think it would always be limited to 2 legs--after all, the FAA will say that flying 2 legs for 10-12 hours is more fatiguing than flying 1 leg for 10-12 hours--there goes your augmented flight across the Atlantic- and even Pacific flights may be affected. Then some yahoo company or pilot group will say "what would be wrong with flying 3 legs for 10-12 hours as long as you have, say, a scheduled (not necessarily actual--must maintain schedule integrity, after all)2 hour break sometime during the day." Alas, the multi-leg 12 hour day is born.

Oh yeah, "this is only for JetBlue, the other carriers don't have to do it"---sorry once JB does it, all the other carriers are going to do it-"competitive pressures", et. al.

Sorry, please don't fix something that isn't broke--there are silly FAR's that should be changed--flight time limits are not one of them.

 

[Dizel8]

Flying plow,

You are missing something, it would not apply to any other carriers, nor would it apply to anything other than daylight transcons. You don't want it, tell your MEC just that, no way, no how.

 

[side stick-n]

FlyingFarmer

You talk big but I bet you don't have the balls to post your name, airline, and JB application number.....

If you don't like what we do or don't do, go work somewhere else. If you think that WE, the little "start up" carrier are "changing the industry", then thank you for the compliment.

Thanks also for the unique names you chose for me/us. I enjoyed the laugh.... Sorry, gotta go clean an airplane now.

 

[Networ-King]

Guys,

This is something that has been done overseas for quite sometime. I just wish that the FAA could learn something from the CAA. Over there its not a matter of how much flight time you have in one day its all about DUTY time. That is the most important thing IMO. Its a pretty good system over there......

If you start your duty day at 6 am then you are limited to 10 hours and 45 minutes of duty time......

If you start your duty day at 9 am then it goes to like 13 hours and 45 minutes of duty time......

My duty times might be off by a few minutes because its been a while....but you get the jest of it.

Its actually a pretty good system and its a lot shorter then duty rigs we have over here. I did this kind of flying out of the UK for 3 years and it worked very nicely, however I just don't see airline management wanting this. I could see management getting way out of hand with this one....... and I mean all AIRLINE MANAGEMENT not just a select few. Lets hope this doesn't blow up in everyones faces cause I can just see the walls crumbling down on all four sides.

 

[Dizel8]

You mean eroding by offering unlimited jumpseats to pilots and F/A's, by trying to have 20-22 days off a month, by not having a union, by having the EMB pilots on the same seniority list?

Or do you mean by having B-scales, treating express/RJ drivers like crap, by aggreing to give up pensions and allowing scabs into ALPA?

Honestly, I do not think it will be approved, so cool your jets. As far as being a tool, well, make that a capitalist tool, that wants max days off, while still making good money. SWA has one of the highest productivities out there, but like one of their pilots told me, they work hard and when they are off, they play hard. One leg out, one leg back all during normal hours sure sounds better than 16 hours of duty, 8 hrs of flying with 7-8 legs.

Start at 8 in the morning, fly to LGB arrive at 3 pm EST, an hour turn, leave at 4pm EST, be home by 9 EST. 13 hrs of duty, 11 hours of flying, 2 legs, 2 landings. I'll take it!

I prefer to be home and having 20-22 days off a month sounds like a good deal to me. Can almost do it now, due to int'l rules.

 

[Malibu]

I don't believe this was even brought up by top management. I for one would love to do this type of day. We are doing major studies on the effects of such a flight day. Actually, we are going to wear some type of body clock watch during red-eyes and day time transcons, and find out which are safer.
Why would we need ALPA? They would just charge us out the bung, then sell us out like they do to the rest of the industry.

 

[Wise Guy]

Wow

I use to give the JB guys the benefit of the doubt, but this is just unbelievable. That Blue Kool Aid must be more addictive than heroin. Seeking waivers to FAR's so they can work harder and hire less pilots...????

Surely not all of the JB guys can think this is a good idea. Then again, they're all gonna be rich off of their stock. Yeah, right.

 

[Dizel8]

Well Les,

I was not thinking we were comparing "equipment" here, but be that as it may.

So, lets think about this for a second, since you fly that "BIG" Boeing, you would perhpas fly across the pond. If so, most of those trips leave at around 8 or 9 pm, certainly know lots of guys who commute in on the same day, with a few hours to spare before they again report for duty. So their time awake is properly well beyong 16, now these people do not have a problem with that. It was their choice. I used to fly that "BIG" Douglas across the pond and many of those guys could not stay alert/awake due their lousy personal scheduling. However, if they were going to exceed their contract by a second, they would refuse, not FAR's but contract.

It works both ways, you know. Since we are required to be rested before a flight, perhaps the airlines should institute, that you have to be at your base at such a time, that you could get 8 hours of rest. I can only imagine the outcry over that one.

I do not know who you work for, nor do I care. I never intended or implied that your airline were better or worse, only you can, based upon your perception.

As far as hard won work rules, those are the ones you have in your contract, those are yours to keep and improve as you see fit. I believe, that having more days off a month, would be benificial to me and my life. I believe, that shorter duty time would be safer to me, I believe limitations on landings per day would be safer to me. You may not agree, the RJ drivers may not agree, ALPA may not agree and the FAA may not agree. It is a personal choice.

Wiseguy,

It would not change the amount of pilots needed, nor would it make you work "harder", as a matter of fact, hours per month would be the same, but number of days worked would decrease.

 

[Wise Guy]

Dizel, While I admire you greatly for your avtar, I'm begining to think you guys can't see the forest through the trees.

 

[General Lee]

That is seriously crazy. Why don't you just get a crew rest seat and a third pilot for extended flights? (ATA does that for the SFO/LAX turns to Hawaii) Any other rules you guys would like to change? How about being able to marry your sister? I bet you would.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Boeingman]

You mean eroding by offering unlimited jumpseats to pilots and F/A's, by trying to have 20-22 days off a month, by not having a union, by having the EMB pilots on the same seniority list?

And this has to do with what?

Or do you mean by having B-scales, treating express/RJ drivers like crap, by aggreing to give up pensions and allowing scabs into ALPA?

B scale? Like JB wages? RJ drivers like crap? Giving up pensions? what is JB's pension program? Scabs into ALPA? Well, a scab can losely be defined as an individual whom though their actions erodes pay and working conditions of the industry. Kind of like what you boys are doing today. And lest we forget. Many of the CAL scabs that are back into ALPA were former ALPA members.

Honestly, I do not think it will be approved, so cool your jets. As far as being a tool, well, make that a capitalist tool, that wants max days off, while still making good money. SWA has one of the highest productivities out there, but like one of their pilots told me, they work hard and when they are off, they play hard. One leg out, one leg back all during normal hours sure sounds better than 16 hours of duty, 8 hrs of flying with 7-8 legs.

Blah blah blah. The idea that you guys would even consider changing an FAR that already is ridiculous is not only unsafe, but extremely ignorant. And selfish I might add. You can also bet the rule will be exploited to include those 7 - 8 leg days.

Start at 8 in the morning, fly to LGB arrive at 3 pm EST, an hour turn, leave at 4pm EST, be home by 9 EST. 13 hrs of duty, 11 hours of flying, 2 legs, 2 landings. I'll take it!

I thought this was a daylight only ops? What about wx delays? MX , ATC? Or are you JB guys going to petition for a waiver for that as well? Home by 9? So you think you'll have a block time back from the west coast of 5 hours? Consistently?


I pref

prefer to be home and having 20-22 days off a month sounds like a good deal to me. Can almost do it now, due to int'l rules.

Soon, the thrill of the shiny new airplanes and expansion will be replaced with the cold hard reality that you're working more hours for less pay at a B scale airline with commuter work rules and no defined pension. Those days off will mean nothing when you're to exhausted to enjoy them.

Really and truly disgusting.

 

[Dizel8]

Boeingman,

Well, that was nice. I am starting to feel like your unwanted child, no wonder you never paid the alimony

Hmm, not sure where to begin, not sure I want to really. Suffice to say, you might want to check a few things, such as wages, work rules etc. Then perhaps you would see that jetBlue is a rather nice place to work. Many people that were furloughed or left majors on their own accord are actually loving it here. As far as jetBlue eroding pay, well, we are aligned pretty well with the middle of the industry, not the highest, far from the lowest. Days off and QOL is in the top I would say.

Now, I have not seen the proposal in it entirety, I am sure it would be very restrictive. And yes, you are quite right, I was perhaps not being clear when I said daylight ops, what the intent is to stay on a normal sleep pattern and body rhythm. You are indeed correct, that west to east in 5 hours would not always work, again, I have not seen the entire proposal, so cannot comment on what the rules re. that would be.

As far as shiny new planes go, I am sorry, but I have been doing this long enough, that hauling airplanes across the sky, while a great way to make a living, it not the end all.

Gen. Lee,

I think that law is already in effect down in Georgia

 

[BlueBusDriver]

........unbelievable !

The thought process of some of these posts are just out of this world.

If the jetBlue pilot group is in favor of a more productive duty day....why does this concern anyone not working for jetBlue?
If you think that your company might try to adopt these same ideas and you are so much against it....."speak up" to your management....our your unions, whichever you think will help you with your cause.

This is an exemption for jetBlue. Other companies have already applied for this same extension (go pester them with your wailing) and I could be mistaken (happens occaisionally)....but I believe one airline has already been granted this exemption and is already taking advantage of the more productive pairings.

Someone has even implied here that by pursuing this exemption, jetBlue is not having to hire more pilots than would normally be needed. You must be on furlough.....right? So are alot of people, but most would understand that productivity is something that both the pilots and management really strive for to keep our company profitable.

Just my 1/2 cent worth (IOU for the other 1 1/2 cents).

BBD

 

[General Lee]

Dizel8,

Wrong. That is not legal in Georgia---that is why we have to go to LA--or Lower Alabama to marry our sisters (plural too) down here!!!! Sue---Weeee!!! Our kid has 3 arms, with one growing out of her head.

Seriously though, please don't try to change FAR limits-----with bad wx and strong headwinds in the Winter----those days may be really long. If you want those same schedules---have a third pilot like ATA does on the Hawaii turns. That would save Jetblue money on hotel costs, and in return you would still get more days off. We sort of do that on a couple of routes---like ATL--Curacao on Saturday's only.

Bye Bye--General Lee