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A Perfect World

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It would be a much better industry for pilots if you didn't have to start all over at the bottom of seniority and pay every time you changed jobs. Does any other industry do this?

What if there were one union wide pay scale and seniority list?

That would give the pilots the freedom to walk away from bad places to work without suffering so much. Companies might have to consider the impact of their actions on their employees.
 
FAA pilot quals v. pilot quals in the real world

Originally posted by Eagleflip
I could argue that FAA licensing requirements also parallel the CAB function of regualtion. In short, one must jump through a sequentially higher set of qualification hoops on the way to becoming a professional pilot. This licensing regulation is therefore tantamount to establishing a "professional pilot" class, a group of skilled laborers that have credentials to legally fly passengers/cargo.
As the Hertz commercial says, "not exactly." And here's why.

Uncle Sam, and for that matter, the International Civil Aviation Organization, sets forth the certification (licenses) and experience requirements for aircrew members. Uncle Sam says all you need to be a big-time airline captain is 1500 hours for your ATP and a First Class Medical. However, to be a captain for the vast majority of 121 carriers you need far more than the 1500 hours for the ATP. In fact, for the longest time not even having a First Class Medical was good enough for the airlines. Your health had to meet medical requirements that far exceeded 14 CFR 67 requirements to hold a First. Thus, what's good enough for the government and the international organization that promulgates basic certification requirements for airline pilots is not good enough for the airlines. In other words, to carry Flipper's comments a bit further, the airlines are establishing an "elite" professional pilot class, without government sanction but for some court cases that are grounded on safety and public policy.

Some airlines argue that their insurance companies mandate their requirements. Of course, the airlines always argue "safety," which, in this situation, is a difficult argument to overcome in light of public policy. I see it as a form of institutionalized discrimination, designed to exclude certain classes of people. Rotsa ruck trying to prove it, though.

My point is although I do understand why, I cannot understand why what's good enough for the government isn't good enough for the airlines.

Just a little food for thought. "Perfect World" is an apt title for this thread.
 
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Re: FAA pilot quals v. pilot quals in the real world

bobbysamd said:
Of course, the airlines always argue "safety," which, in this situation, is a difficult argument to overcome in light of public policy. I see it as a form of institutionalized discrimination, designed to exclude certain classes of people. Rotsa ruck trying to prove it, though.

Care to elaborate on this? I haven't given this much thought, outside the obvious types one would want to exclude from the pilot force, crazies, criminals, etc. What classes are being excluded?
 
Institutionalized discrimination

Just a couple of examples which come to mind immediately.

1. Pilot health. AA and its subsidiaries used to demand a health history of your ancestors. You had to disclose the ages at which they died and the causes of death. It's been several years since I completed the form, so I don't remember all, but I do recall that you had to disclose health histories of your parents, and your health history. Compare that with FAA First Class Medical disclosure requirements, where all you have to do is disclose your health history. In many cases one's health history might not be perfect but sufficient to let one hold a First, but not sufficient to be employed at AA. Therefore, AA has discriminated against scores of perfectly healthy and productive pilots.

Once more, I understand that AA has done away with the health history disclosure.

2. Vision requirements. Many excellent pilots have horrendous uncorrected vision. However, their vision can be corrected to 20/20 or better with glasses, etc., and they can hold a First, with or without a SODA. However, many airlines have established vision requirements which are far greater than Uncle Sam, our government, has established. Therefore, although your vision may be good enough for our government and/or the ICAO, it's not good enough for the airlines. So, another class of individuals is suffering discrimination.

It has gone from the ridiculous to the sublime. Delta required 20/20 or better uncorrected vision on date of hire. After that, a Delta pilot's vision could go to hell but would not affect his/her employment. Documentation of that is apparent. I've seen many Delta pilots who wear glasses. I understand that Delta has relaxed that requirement. Welcome to the twenty-first century.

3. Age 60. I do not intend to ignite an Age-60 debate. But this is institutionalized age discrimination. I believe that it was the first FAA Administrator, Pete Quesada, who pushed through the Age 60 rule in 1959.

Age 60 has been challenged several times in court, e.g., Coupi v. Federal Express Corporation. Here's a link to Coupi. Read the case for background on the Age-60 rule and its discrimination implications. Also see Murnane v. American Airlines, Inc., 667 F.2d 98 (D.C. Cir. 1981) ("we find the maximization of safety to be reasonably necessary to the normal operation' of [the defendant airline]"). Coupi cites to Murnane. Murnane is an example of how airlines always use "safety" as a shield and excuse to discriminate against certain classes of pilots. Sorry, I cannot find a link to Murnane.

I did not mean to post a memorandum of law. But I was asked to elaborate on my belief that many forms of institutionalized discrimination exist in airline hiring and the difficulty faced in overcoming it. Once more, this is not a "perfect world."
 
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surfnole said:
It would be a much better industry for pilots if you didn't have to start all over at the bottom of seniority and pay every time you changed jobs. Does any other industry do this?

What if there were one union wide pay scale and seniority list?

That would give the pilots the freedom to walk away from bad places to work without suffering so much. Companies might have to consider the impact of their actions on their employees.



This is KEY to the future of our profession.... A Guild that encompasses 135, 91 and 121.... the Guild sets a wage for a certain type, a work month, duty day limits etc... and the pilots then must seek employers that meet those requirements.... if a pilot chooses to disregard this guild, he is marked and his future is limited in much the same way a scab's would be. This would effectively lift the burden off the pilots and force companies all over in every walk to pay a reasonable wage otherwise they will not be able to recruit.
 
what kind of crack were ya smoking dude

I got yer freaking guild.

I work ten days a month, with three day weekends. I got insurance, good vacation, good compensatory time off. I'm just starting my third year with the company and I got two weeks vacation and one week of comp time coming. My pay is almost 40 grand a year and get paid perdiem on top of that. My equipment is well maintained and is probably the best mx in the freight industry. I only have to fly 40 to 50 hours a month and management doesn't push pilots to fly, when it's really not safe to. I like my job and I don't need you screwing it up with your "hands across the world, rose colored glasses, guild brother" version of communism.

Now you want me to pay dues and join a guild...so all the sudden some guy from toadsuck, idaho can just bump me out of my job and send me packing to hackensack! Bulllllllllllsheeeeeeit!

I'll tell you what buddy...go pee up a rope. Leave my job alone with your fantasy island...de plane boss, de plane...bull crap.

If you want to live in socialism...pack your yellow belly ass up and go drive a train over in the GDR.

We haven't had any layoff's, aren't expecting em...in fact we are expanding. What you're proposing is a system where loafers and bad employee's get rewarded when THEIR place of employment fails...by taking the jobs of the people that are working hard at making their places of employment profitable. What you are proposing, is darn near communist. There would be no incentive for people to work hard, amongst the people that have the most seniority, because all they would have to do is bump some other guy out of a job...at some other place. The lowest seniority guys, the hardest working group of this communist proposal you suggest, would be the ones that would pay for the senior members lack of production.

WORK at the place YOU work at...and if you and your management can't compete or operate in a profitable manner, UNION OR NOT...then get the hell off the playing field!!! Don't come around saying that because you worked at Great Lakes for 17 years and they failed cause you went on strike or were niggardly in your work ethics and in the same sentance, tell me to move over so you can bump me out my job....cause we're GUILD BROTHERS!!! PUHHHHLEEEEEZE! Talk about wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

You would make a good government worker or school teacher...freaking socialists and communists! Always with their hands out, talking about here I am...FEED ME! Where's my pay raise...wahahahaha? How come my same sex life partner can't live off of my government provided, taxpayer paid for, health insurance? waaaaaaaaahahahaha?

I'm not anti UNION...but what you are proposing is ludicrust! YEA...I SAID LUDICRUST.
 
V70T5 said:
This is KEY to the future of our profession.... A Guild that encompasses 135, 91 and 121.... the Guild sets a wage for a certain type, a work month, duty day limits etc... and the pilots then must seek employers that meet those requirements.... if a pilot chooses to disregard this guild, he is marked and his future is limited in much the same way a scab's would be. This would effectively lift the burden off the pilots and force companies all over in every walk to pay a reasonable wage otherwise they will not be able to recruit.

Does this mean that companies would HAVE to pick pilots from this guild. If I was the starting my own airline, I would want to pick and choose all my employees (pilots too) that fit my vision of a workforce, not necessarily one that is in some boys club. Do not read into this statement. It has NOTHING to do with anything other than baseline qualifications, but mainly background and ATTITUDE, ATTITUDE, ATTITUDE. Are you the type who looks at the passengers and are proactive with them as they board, or do you prefer to not make eye contact, except for an occasional nod or hello. Are you the type who the gate agents hate to deal with? Are you that ego driven pilot who will fly their way... period. Are you the one that feels each and every scheduler is out to scr@w you, and talk rudely to whoever answers the phone, BEFORE you even know who, what etc. Are you that 10% who makes up 80% of the trouble in your current company.

The idea of a guild is not neccessarily bad, but a guild is only as good as its weakest member, and not all pilots make good employees, thus bad guild members.
 
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If you have a problem with what V70T5 posted, than a history lesson is in order. How/Why did unions get started? Take a look at where those initial unions are now.. Whose union is more successful as representing its members as professionals? Commanding what they are worth with a national payscale.. Those unions are far superior to our largest union... There is no arguing that.

It would take me hours to type all the history and comparison between the original unions and what ours has evolved and become to mold itself to our line of work. V70T5 is merely taking the original concept of how a union is supposed to work, and I couldn't agree with him more! Its called National Focus, which ALPA has none... You let me know what is different btw an SJ-200 pilot's job at ASA and MESA... don't they both fly the exact same equipment with the exact same purpose... The original unions realized there is no distinction and structured themselves accordingly.
 
WrightAvia, your accusations are out of line, we are having a discussion about things that obviously don't apply to you in your perfect job. If you have nothing intelligent to add, then stay out. I don't take kindly to your accusation of being a communist, especially since I am pretty darn anti-communist and the only socialist idea I believe in just happens to be unions and guilds. I am practicing Catholic, conservative Republican voting, former military, the works... so Don't question my political leanings before you bother to ask! European trade unions and guilds are a model for our profession, but the rest of their social engineering is not up my ally. I for one would rather have strong unions with well paid members, than rich fat cat robber baron CEO's, you? As for asking me to go to another country, quite frankly, I don't really want to.

Now to answer the more intelligent question of whether a company would be able to hire from outside the guild.... sure, they could hire WrightAvia and pay him less or give me a worse schedule than is considered minimum (when he looses his great job that he has today) by the guild . BTW, this minimum would be decided by a democratic means of polling all pilots involved and not an elite few. If a pilot goes against the guilds minimum guidelines, that pilot would himself be marked and find it hard to work elsewhere... kinda like the dudes at Freedom.. This would have the effect of causing employers to have to step up and pay fair wages all the way down to CFI, as most of us do care about or career enough not to get our selves "marked".

In a nutshell, we need s universal union, and if you decide not to join, it's to your own peril.

Not sure how the LRA would effect this type of guild since it's not really a union with strike votes etc... but it would go a long way to raise the bar for all involved.

It reminds me of the ad that I say last year for a Lear 35 FO needed on Avcrew.com stating that the pay was $18,500/year for a 20 day month, and raised to $23,000/year after 1 year probation... the person who took that job did a disservice to himself and the others by letting that company pay that kind of usury wage... had no one answered that ad, they may have reassessed their pay and decided to at least match NBAA recommended wages..

Any intelligent ideas?
 
Guilds

V70T5 said:
A Guild that encompasses 135, 91 and 121.... the Guild sets a wage for a certain type, a work month, duty day limits etc... and the pilots then must seek employers that meet those requirements.... if a pilot chooses to disregard this guild, he is marked and his future is limited in much the same way a scab's would be. This would effectively lift the burden off the pilots and force companies all over in every walk to pay a reasonable wage otherwise they will not be able to recruit.
Interesting. Read up on union history. The trade guilds in Europe were the predecessors of today's labor unions.

In fact, many unions operate similar to guilds. I know the IBEW trains electricians from apprentice to journeyman on up. I am sure the Carpenters' and Masons' unions do the same.

I thought I'd save everyone a trip to the library and/or their Encyclopaedia Brittanica. I ran a quick search and found this link to an article about trade guilds.

This article is also interesting. So is this article, despite the obvious bias.
 
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Re: Guilds

bobbysamd said:
Interesting. Read up on union history. The trade guilds in Europe were the predecessors of today's labor unions.

I thought I'd save everyone a trip to the library and/or their Encyclopaedia Brittanica. I ran a search and found this link to an article about trade guilds.

Good link, thanks... BTW.. Guild is no perfect solution... but I await other ideas? We really need to do something.
 
V70T5 said:
WrightAvia...if you have nothing intelligent to add, then stay out.
Couldn't have said it better myself. Sorry, WrightAvia, but you're out in left field on this one...so much so that I thought you were being sarcastic at first.

You have, however, posted a perfect example of how pilots will never support an idea that will better the industry as long as it hurts them personally...and I'm no different! A national seniority list would make a lot of labor problems disappear. It would also mean that I probably wouldn't see the left seat of an airliner (or anything else, for that matter) before age sixty! I'd fight it tooth and nail, even though it would make the industry a better place for my children.

And I'm sorry, but anyone who doesn't believe in organized labor in aviation has their head in the sand.
 
Typhoon1244 said:
And I'm sorry, but anyone who doesn't believe in organized labor in aviation has their head in the sand.

that really is what it's all about in the end. Proper, and meaningful organized labor.... it almost defeats itself in the current "corprate" state of separate MEC's and separate union groupes... at a minimum we need a model more like the UAW... some kind of true brotherhood, not just a "my airline is better than yours" model.
 
RIGHT ON!

that really is what it's all about in the end. Proper, and meaningful organized labor.... it almost defeats itself in the current "corprate" state of separate MEC's and separate union groupes... at a minimum we need a model more like the UAW... some kind of true brotherhood, not just a "my airline is better than yours" model.

BRAVO BRAVO

I have been saying that on here ever since I have been a member
 
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The guild idea is ultimately the only good one, however, it does come with limitations...most people are coming to realize that job security is key. An excellent contract is no good at all if there is no airline to honor it. That is tied to airline stability, and that was guarenteed by the CAB. My feelings are that if we can't have stability on a corporate level, we need it on a national level.

I also wanted to interject some thoughts regarding deregulation.

My father and I discuss deregulation on a ongoing basis, and I hope I could bring 1/10th of that knowledge to the table. Not only does he have a resident MBA, he was on Capitol Hill for ALPA at the time of the hearings.

His conclusions, in summary not totality;

1. Deregulation in execution was designed to make a certain group of people wealthy. This group of individuals crafted the legislation, then executed it in such a way as to ensure their profit. Most then left the industry.

2. The pilot group in particular was extremely divided regarding support or opposition to the idea itself. The Delta and United groups, for example, were very positive on the idea because they saw growth for themselves. Others, notably TWA, Eastern, Braniff and PanAm knew their days were numbered because of a variety of factors. These factors were mostly the result of previous mandates handed down by CAB. Fleet mix, routes and hubs were dicated by CAB to service particular routes. An airline just couldn't go out and dump 120 707's and L1011's and replace them with 737's overnight. Or they could, and incure tremendous expense. Short-haul and new-entrants could tailor fleets much easier.

3. The safeguards built into the system to protect workers that would be dispaced by deregulation were ignored.

4. Financing was drastically affected. Previously, it was dictated by routes, post deregulation, it was dicated by slots. Legacy carriers with long haul routes had a difficult time raising money in environment where short haul outfits (DL, AA, UA) and their accompaning slots were where the money went to.

Sorry for the thread hijack...just figured that this needed to put put in the record somewhere.

Regards-
 
Unions, guilds, etc.

In line with this discussion, we had a similar discussion on this forum a little more than a year ago. Here's a link to that thread.
 
FL717,
Great picture. I have actually flown that plane, after the incident. It flies just like you would think that it would. Good old Mesaba just couldn't pass up up a deal like that when Express wanted to unload it.
 
Re: Unions, guilds, etc.

bobbysamd said:
In line with this discussion, we had a similar discussion on this forum a little more than a year ago. Here's a link to that thread.

Good link, I must have missed that great discussion... However, I think now we need to focus on what kind of union we need... as the ALPA model is a bit broken (I say this as a 7 year member)
 
My perfect world only needs a defined benefit pension.
 

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