a MAJOR announcement @ SkyWest

[FlyDeltasJets]

Fins,

I have to give it to you, you're wearing me out. If you keep repeating the same allegations, does that make them true?

The rjdc will lose in court. Perhaps the judge will throw it out, or perhaps they will lose at trial, but they will lose (thankfully for our profession). The supporters of the rjdc SHOULD then be removed from the union (time will tell if that will occur, but I have already started fighting for it). Our contract will withstand your selfish assault, just as it would if someone were to sue to change it regarding our ability to choose our codeshare partners.

Enjoy the last word here. I will enjoy it later.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Oh, and on what grounds are you going to have me removed from the union? Does that mean I don't have to pay dues for all the representation I'm getting? Oh please, what ever you do, don't throw Brier Rabbit in that there briar patch.

Somehow, if Duane Woerth is so pleased to get his picture taken eating cake and ice cream with Continental Scabs, he will not hold too much of a grudge about my support of pilots who are fighting for the right to bargain collectively with their employer.

ALPA actually has a history of offering Plaintiffs high office at National. We have an EVP who brought the Jet America litigation over a DFR claim. It is more likely that Dan Ford will rise in the ranks for fighting to restore the union than be tossed out. After all, continued malfeasance and retribution against RJDC supporters is illegal as well. Cheaper by the dozen just to buy 'em off. Unfortunately for ALPA, Ford can't be bought.

I will copy your post into my "I told you so" file that I'm starting.

 

[601Pilot]

????

The only flaw I see in that logic is that there will not be an
ALPA if the RJDC wins. I'm glad you are in the minority here at
ASA or I would think we were in trouble! Regionals are for
building time to move to the majors, always have been and
always will be and that's what the majority of us here are doing.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for getting a better contract and
more money for the guys that will follow me and I'll be happy to
fight/picket/strike for it.

Buh-bye!

 

[Russ]

I suppose it is time to finish this dialogue as it serves only to to give the 3 of us a case of the red a$$.

All of our hypotheticals will end soon and the hardball starts thereafter. I don't believe we will get mainline size aircraft but the companies work seems to be centered around stretched RJ's.
SkyWest has a pretty forward leaning top management team. I find it hard to believe they would persue a course of action that would have us lose the contract with D. You might want to review your iron clad contract for leaks. A little background. The UA contract for the West came available in 97 or thereabouts. SkyWest approached D about it and was told absolutely no. No way would they code share with a carrier that was serving UA also. We would have to forfeit the contract with D. Well, as they say the rest is history.........

Finished here.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Russ,

There was nothing in our contract that would have prohibited that. I cannot answer for our mgt, but our contract has no loopholes where that is concerned. If mgt wanted to continue codesharing with skywest after skywest bought airplanes larger that 70 seat (72 seats for prop planes) they would need our permission.

I am not speculating whether or not that would be granted, just as I am not speculating whether you will buy those planes. All I am doing is pointing out contract language with which Delta must abide.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Re: ????

The only flaw I see in that logic is that there will not be an
ALPA if the RJDC wins. I'm glad you are in the minority here at
ASA or I would think we were in trouble! Regionals are for
building time to move to the majors, always have been and
always will be and that's what the majority of us here are doing.

So, you believe that pilots at regionals should recieve different representation by their union, or be under the control of the MEC's at major airlines?

The RJDC is not fighting to distroy ALPA. The RJDC is fighting for the principles our union was founded on, fighting alter ego airlines that undermine all of our collective bargaining efforts, including Delta's. Your post reflects that you genuinely do not understand the issues of representation involved.

ALPA should be leading the charge to stop alter ego airlines which are a blockade run of unions' efforts to hold a company to a contract. ALPA National does understand the problem and says some of the right things, for example when they talk about "brand scope." The problem is that ALPA National is unwilling, or unable, to control the big MEC's - particularly the Delta MEC.

The Delta MEC speaks for the Delta pilots through ALPA and that is good. I have no problem with the Delta MEC promoting the interests of their pilots. The problem is that currently the Delta MEC speaks for Comair, ASA, and Skywest pilots while at the same time using our only bargaining agent, ALPA, to block us from negotiating with our employer. I do have a huge problem with the fact my job with my employer is controlled by another pilot group's MEC without my vote and without my participation.

I believe that everyone, Fly Delta Jets included, supports the principles that employees should be able to bargain collectively with their employer and be represented by a union. It is a core, founding principle of ALPA. Now explain to me, how that destroys ALPA?

Yes, there is a damages demand, a big one that ALPA can not pay. If it is proven that ALPA has not represented their pilots at ASA and Comair fairly the ALPA has a choice, they can fix their structure to allow ASA and Comair pilots the same representational rights as other ALPA pilot groups, or pay the money. The whole point of the damages demand is to force ALPA to act appropriately - because if they behave, they don't have to pay a dime.

ALPA is a political body. It is very difficult for ALPA National to control the politicians at the Delta MEC. They will not treat pilots at smaller airlines fairly unless forced to do so. Like you, I find a damages demand in the millions distasteful, but I realize it is necessary to secure the kind of representation needed to restore our industry and at the same time fix the problems that might cause ALPA to break down into a system of fiefdoms at war with each other.

Fly Delta's Jets and I agree on what is needed to fix the problem and we share the beliefs in the same core issues. We have very different opinions on how the repairs should be made. Restoring our industry requires unity - we all know that. Unity benefits you at ASA and pilots at Delta. But, throughout history employers have fought employees efforts to come together. At Delta we can expect a fight and it is easier for those in a comfortable position to enjoy the fat of the land rather than fight to fix problems that future mainline pilots, like you, are going to experience.

If the Delta MEC had not fought one list, their furloughed pilots would be CRJ700 Captains, you would have a career path, Skywest could operate whatever they wanted to fly under any code other than Delta's and it is unlikely we would have seven different groups of pilots flying Delta's narrow body domestic routes.

So why would that destroy ALPA? Just because the current political will at the Delta MEC favors military pilots over civillian? It is not that big a deal - ALPA could change in a moment and Duane Woerth could claim it was all his idea to return to the basic principles our union was founded on and the need for the RJDC would simply disappear.

~~~^~~~

 

[hawkowl88]

One list is the only solution

I've said before and I'll say it again. Contract, shmontract. Major airline pilot contracts aren't worth the paper they're written on in today's cutthroat, competitive, bankrupt environment. Ask UAL, USAIR, TWA. Christ what about Delta's no furlough clause? When the company's survival is at stake, everything is open to negotiation.

Scope can not survive across companies. A union only has as much bargaining power by admitting all qualified employees to the same list and affording equal protection. If the union sets up an artificial second class set of citizens it sows the seeds of its own demise via whipsawing. ALPA shouldn't be called a union it should be termed a dis-union. This attitude of I got mine and you can't have yours is suicidal. For christ sake staple everyone at the bottom and control the means of production.

Codeshare simply means you sell tickets for other airlines on specific routes DALPA can't control the airplanes of other companies. I would laugh if it wasn't so tragic. What are you going to strike over this scope clause? File CH11 and infuriate your non-pilot employees? I didn't think so. No credible threat, no bargaining power, no scope. Yeah, Yeah DALPA will sue. Whoopdedoo. All Delta has to do is point to UAL, & USAir farming out their flying as fast as they can shovel it out the door and scream "competitive disadvantage!" You won't be able to keep your payscale and your scope and your retirement and your workrules when everyone else is signing their lives away. Only brutal capitalist competition. Survival of the lowest bidder.

I hope as a good pilot you have an alternate, a 2nd alternate and a takeoff alternate and enough fuel to get there.

 

[PCL_128]

Fins, you need to look more closely at your cherished lawsuit. It doesn't ask for the elimination of "predatory" scope or damages assessments. It asks for BOTH. If Mr. Ford et al. win their lawsuit, it will mean the elimination of so-called "predatory" scope and the destruction of ALPA. ALPA would be required to pay hundreds of millions of dollars which they don't have.

You can try to make the RJDC and Mr. Ford seem like saints trying to save ALPA, but that doesn't ring true. Mr. Ford and his compatriots at the RJDC are nothing but greedy, whining, selfish litigants. They don't care about ALPA or what is best for the profession. They only care about getting absurd amounts of money from their own union.

Listen to 601Pilot. Most of your CMR/ASA brethren feel the way he does. You and your RJDC friends just won't listen to them.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Fins, you need to look more closely at your cherished lawsuit.

It is not my lawsuit, but I support the action.

You can try to make the RJDC and Mr. Ford seem like saints trying to save ALPA, but that doesn't ring true. Mr. Ford and his compatriots at the RJDC are nothing but greedy, whining, selfish litigants. They don't care about ALPA or what is best for the profession. They only care about getting absurd amounts of money from their own union.

You don't know any of the litigants and don't know their motives. Why is it so hard for you to believe that perhaps I am uncomfortable with another MEC negotiating my career? You are a radical, and probably feel I am too. You are this upset about the RJDC just trying to secure representation for our pilots - how would you feel if you were in our shoes? If I had control of your MEC and your employer, like DALPA effects control over ours?

Listen to 601Pilot. Most of your CMR/ASA brethren feel the way he does. You and your RJDC friends just won't listen to them.

Mr. 601 pilot does not have to support the RJDC and I bet he doesn't. He is confused and believes the RJDC can "destroy ALPA." They can't and they don't want to.

As a junior pilot, Mr. 601's job is effected more by the predatory actions of the Delta MEC than mine, but it is his choice. He has come along at a fortunate time and does not know the real harm that ALPA's scope policy can cause (after all, the effect has been felt most by the junior members of the Delta seniority list) {Also, by twarting much of the harm - the RJDC has helped Mr. 601 - he just does not know it} The ASA pilot group elected the officers that brought the PID and re-elected them. No one ran on the "lets let the Delta pilots take whatever they want and stop our attempts to secure job protection" platform. Yet, somehow, they were re-elected with great margins and pilot support.

Mr. 601 should have a voice that should be heard, not excluded. While I do disagree with him, I will fight for the right of his MEC to represent him. If the RJDC succeeds in securing representation for our pilots, then our MEC will have the power to act on Mr. 601's desires.

 

[PCL_128]

You don't know any of the litigants and don't know their motives. Why is it so hard for you to believe that perhaps I am uncomfortable with another MEC negotiating my career? You are a radical, and probably feel I am too. You are this upset about the RJDC just trying to secure representation for our pilots - how would you feel if you were in our shoes? If I had control of your MEC and your employer, like DALPA effects control over ours?

I am in your shoes. I work at Pinnacle (NWAirlink) where our flying is scoped by the NWA mainline contract. The NWA scope is a heck of a lot more restrictive than Delta's. We have to convert the new CRJs we are getting to 44-seat versions so that we can have more RJs. The NWA scope prevents us from having more than about 45 50-seat jets. We are completely prohibited from having ANYTHING over 50 seats. Mesaba had to get special permission to operate the Avro and they are limited to the number they currently have. I don't forsee the possibility of flying a 70 seater anytime in they near future. Certainly not a 90 seater.

Am I worried about my career being limited by mainline NWA scope? Absolutely not!!! ALPA is doing their best to make sure that the high paying mainline jobs will still be there when it's my time to apply. I don't want to be stuck at a regional the rest of my life. The scope at the majors is helping to keep the high paying jobs that I want someday. It is not limiting my career.

Mr. 601 pilot does not have to support the RJDC and I bet he doesn't. He is confused and believes the RJDC can "destroy ALPA." They can't and they don't want to.

Explain to me how a ruling in the RJDC's favor requiring hundreds of millions of dollars to be paid by ALPA would not bankrupt the union. ALPA simply does not have the money to pay in the event they lose this lawsuit. The RJDC can destroy ALPA, and I believe that is their ultimate objective.