A few questions for the Jet Blue pilots on this forum

[wndshr]

As for job security, I doubt it. I don't think B6 will still be around 10 years from now. Just my opinion. The only real job security is in cargo nowdays.

You're certainly right about earning potential, but that's not the point. The point is that a 90-seat mainline pilot deserves a heck of a lot more than $40/hour second year. Any company that doesn't realize that isn't a company that "cares" for its employees as much as the B6 guys claim that Blue cares about them.

you could be right about b6 not being around in ten years...that is the thing about the airline industry...catches a lot of us saying, "who woulda thought that XYZ airline would be gone...those poor guys/gals that got on back in (fill in the blank)" but if i had to place a bet on job security...i would not place a bet on a CRJ in delta colors! of course, just my opinion too!

when you say a 90 seat mainline pilot deserves....you are absolutely right. however, when you DECIDE to take a job at jetblue you are weighing more into the equation than absolute pay. ie, GROWTH, PRODUCTIVITY, PROFIT SHARING, MANAGEMENT, STOCK, ETC (how much do you think former US NW or DAL pilots would give out of their paychecks to find a management team who could actually run an airline? instead they have to give out of their paychecks AND keep the same management!)

if pay is all you want...then i agree...fly cargo and don't look back. unfortunately and fortunately that lifestyle does not agree with every type of pilot. sure, b6 pay in the emb is low....but if the 190 eventually proves itself a winner, the pilots subsidizing the start up costs now will be rewarded. that is what GOOD mangagement does. would you expect the same logic at another carrier?

 

[Skygod]

Second year pay on the EMB is $71 (plus time and a half over 70). You're looking in the wrong column . . . upgrade will be about 12 to 14 months . . .

 

[Blue Dude]

Second year pay on the EMB is $71 (plus time and a half over 70). Your looking in the wrong column . . . upgrade will be about 12 to 14 months . . .

Not to mention that none of the companies listed, except Continental, have anyone in any seat at the 1 or 2 year rates, and won't for the rest of the decade at least. That's something else to consider in the equation as well.

 

[JB Bus Drvr]

Hey PCL, I've got an idea. Why don't you interview here, get hired and start a union. That way you can have first hand experience on what goes on here and you'll be able to have a better informed opinion of what goes on here. No Blue Kool-Aid, just re-read my post and understand what I said. I personnally don't care for the 190 rates, didn't care for the starting 320 rates when I first started, but after a year and a half in business, 320 rates raised approx. 19%. You need to understand you have to start somewhere. By the way, how many other companys have you found in your vast aviation experience where the senior guys have raised he!! about junior pay rates. I don't think many.

 

[MercuryPilot]

Yeah, it takes a lot of "caring" to pay a professional air line pilot $37/hour to fly a 90-seat jet. And wow, it even goes up to $40/hour the second year! Yipee!!! That kool-aid must taste pretty dang good.

To be accurate, the E-190 is a 100-seat jet. Also, our E190 FOs will be CAs in about a year and receiving more compensation.

MP

 

[PCL_128]

Second year pay on the EMB is $71 (plus time and a half over 70). You're looking in the wrong column . . . upgrade will be about 12 to 14 months . . .

Wrong attitude. Eventually, someone is going to end up stuck as an FO on those horrible payrates because the wild growth will slow down or stop and an upgrade will be nowhere in sight.

 

[Blue Dude]

Wrong attitude. Eventually, someone is going to end up stuck as an FO on those horrible payrates because the wild growth will slow down or stop and an upgrade will be nowhere in sight.

If past history is any guide, the pay rates will be jacked up significantly before anyone is stuck with them for very long. The planes just started flying a couple of months ago. Come back in five years, and if the rates are still the same, you would have a valid point.

 

[PCL_128]

If past history is any guide, the pay rates will be jacked up significantly before anyone is stuck with them for very long. The planes just started flying a couple of months ago. Come back in five years, and if the rates are still the same, you would have a valid point.

I don't care about five years from now, your EMB payrates are exerting a downward pressure on the industry right now. How is anyone to negotiate a decent 70-seat rate when your 100-seat rate isn't even decent? The answer everyone gets from management is simple: "The JetBlue pilots are willing to fly 100-seaters for $40/hour, so why won't you fly 70-seaters for that price?" DAL and NWA pilots are being forced to match your EMB rates for all 90-100 seat airplanes because that is the new benchmark that any BK judge is going to look at. The entire industry is affected by this, not just your pilots.

 

[That Guy]

I don't care about five years from now, your EMB payrates are exerting a downward pressure on the industry right now. How is anyone to negotiate a decent 70-seat rate when your 100-seat rate isn't even decent? The answer everyone gets from management is simple: "The JetBlue pilots are willing to fly 100-seaters for $40/hour, so why won't you fly 70-seaters for that price?"

The entire industry has been affected by deregulation, the economy, and fuel prices, just to name a few. It continues to evolve, and we can either adapt or become dinosaurs.

You and I may not like it, PCL, but we live in a very different world than the one most of our predecessors had operated in.

Only you and your fellow pilots know what you can and cannot negotiate in your CBA, and for you/your pilot group to take the "...JetBlue pilots are willing to fly for (insert a pay rate here)" statement put forth by your management seriously is a joke. If I were on your negotiating committee, I would laugh in their faces when they say it. Simply put, your company is not JetBlue. You folks have to negotiate the best pay rates/QOL contractual issues you can, for your specific situation. To blame JetBlue payrates for anything involving your company or contract negotiations is foolhardy and playing into the hands of management. In the era of regulation, it was much easier to do an apples to apples comparison of aircraft pay rates by seating size or comparable type, but not anymore. The management knows it, they are simply throwing out the standard chaff in hopes of getting you guys wrapped up in it and diverting your attention from the reality of the situation.

I really hope your pilot group does well in your current/future negotiations. I also hope you come to the conclusion that pitting one carrier or pilot group against another does nothing to help ANY of us out - unless you're management.

TG

 

[B6Guy]

Excellent!

Excellent post That Guy. Sums it up very well.


.

 

[MercuryPilot]

blah, blah, blah...JetBlue's dragging down the industry...blah, blah, blah...it's all JetBlue's fault...blah, blah, blah

sounds like a broken record

Wasn't this exact thread on here last month? And the month before? And the month before that?...

 

[Smoking Man]

Sounds the same to me, I wonder if I donated to the RJDC if that in combination with me going to the 190 will add to the topic!

Does the RJDC take pay pal?


See you in 11+ years, at jetBlue

 

[Skygod]

Your union can't get you pay rates better than ours . . . but you want us to get a union. Good sales pitch! Where do I sign up?

 

[mrtoy2]

In my previous life (at a certain LCC carrier in bankrupcy), we were asked the "...jetBlue flys for $51/hr (airbus first year pay) and we need to get to their cost structure so will have to do the same". I was upset at this as well. The problem is that management, and some on this board, don't look at the ways jetBlue pilots are compensated. They only see: $51/hr and a 70hr guar. and stop right there. I did the same at the time. If you do a little more research than that though B6 pays at 150% anything over 70 hours. Average schedules are around 83 hours. You do the math. If you still don't like it, you don't have to apply.

 

[Blue Dude]

I don't care about five years from now, your EMB payrates are exerting a downward pressure on the industry right now.

etc. etc.

None of this has anything to do with the statement I responded to, which was:

Eventually, someone is going to end up stuck as an FO on those horrible payrates because the wild growth will slow down or stop and an upgrade will be nowhere in sight.

I thought I gave you a very succinct answer as to why things are the way they are, and you ignored it completely by bringing up something else. But I'll answer anyway.

Our equipment rollout schedule, cost structure, and projected operating costs don't take your particular bargaining situation into account, so your problems are frankly irrelevent to when and how much our pay rates will rise.

There is no union at JetBlue because most pilots know the score and can judge for themselves whether or not there is a need for one (i.e. if or how badly they're being screwed). As far as how that affects you, I'll be blunt. It's just too bad. My paychecks don't have your name on them, and if we raised the mythical bar just to make you happy with us, it would greatly harm the rollout process of an airplane that would probably be operated by a regional airline in any other airline system. Scope is a critical enough issue that, in my opinion, it's worth the initial pay hit to keep it in house.

Ultimately, if you're stupid enough to buy the line that you have to take the same pay we have, even though your business model is completely different, then there's no hope for you anyway. Your pattern bargaining needs are strictly speaking, not our problem. Does that make us selfish? You bet it does. But then, that's exactly what we all do. We take into account the specific situation at our specific properties and act accordingly. Nobody - nobody - writes their contracts with "the good of the industry" in mind, only the good of their own company's pilots. That's the hard truth.

You can afford to be altruistic when you bitch about someone else's pay rates affecting your own negotiations, but if the situation were reversed, you wouldn't walk that talk, you'd merely act in your own best interests. In our case, the pay rates are disappointingly low, but there's a reason for it. If in a few years, nothing has changed, then you'll see a lot more pushing back on our part. But for now, two months into the deployment, we're all taking a wait and see attitude on how it's going to work out. That timing sucks for you, but it works for us. Sorry.

 

[MercuryPilot]

Thanks, Blue Dude. Very well said.
MP

 

[PCL_128]

Your pattern bargaining needs are strictly speaking, not our problem.

And the needs of your pilots to jumpseat to JFK are strictly speaking, not my problem either. Are you starting to see why some of the NWA guys are giving your pilots such a hard time on the jumpseat? This "screw you, we've got ours" attitude of the JBlue pilots is getting old. I have yet to deny a JBlue jumpseater, and I probably won't in the future either, but I do understand where the few NWA pilots that have are coming from. Your attitude is hard to take when the rest of us are struggling just to hold onto the flying we already have.

 

[Blue Dude]

Oh, bullsh*t. Name a single bargaining unit that has kept the needs of the industry above their own. There isn't one. This isn't a "screw you, we've got ours" attitude any more than any other pilot group. There is no duty, requirement, or even courteous expectation, that we should harm our business to make your bargaining easier. No pilot group has ever done so, and we won't be the first. That's all there is to it.

You are again attempting to shift focus to yet another area that wasn't even addressed in your previous comments. Try to stay on topic, hm?


I am quite amused at this line:

Your attitude is hard to take when the rest of us are struggling just to hold onto the flying we already have.

Isn't that what's been accomplished here? Holding onto ALL of our flying? Not contracting it out to the lowest bidder, whoever that might be at the moment? You should be rejoicing that you have a successful precedent for keeping all of the flying in house.

 

[PCL_128]

There is no duty, requirement, or even courteous expectation, that we should harm our business to make your bargaining easier.

Of course, and I haven't suggested that you do so. There is no danger of your business suffering any "harm" here. You work for a profitable company, and as such, the company has the ability to pay you a fair wage that doesn't undercut the rest of the industry and force us into tough bargaining positions. If your company was on the brink of financial ruin then I certainly wouldn't expect you to demand higher rates on the EMB flying, but with steady profits for years Jetblue can certainly pay you the going rate for 100-seat flying without any risk to profitability.

Isn't that what's been accomplished here? Holding onto ALL of our flying? Not contracting it out to the lowest bidder, whoever that might be at the moment? You should be rejoicing that you have a successful precedent for keeping all of the flying in house.

There isn't any succesful precedent here at all. All you've done is give management at other companies the ammo to say "If you want to keep the flying, then you'll have to do it for JetBlue rates. The JetBlue pilots don't seem to mind it. In fact, they defend it!" Besides, you haven't even managed to really secure the flying at your own airline. Without a union and a CBA with scope, JetBlue can send those airplanes to another bidder anytime they want if you guys start complaining about the rates and mentioning a union. They have just managed to hold something else over your head to keep the union talk at bay. Again, no matter how much you polish that turd, it's still a turd.

 

[BeCareful!]

US Airways will own JB before 2010.....mark my words.