A few questions for the Jet Blue pilots on this forum

[wndshr]

Yeah, it takes a lot of "caring" to pay a professional air line pilot $37/hour to fly a 90-seat jet. And wow, it even goes up to $40/hour the second year! Yipee!!! That kool-aid must taste pretty dang good.

you are right! the 90 seat rate is pretty shabby! Did you ever see the A320 rate when B6 first started?

i might be wrong...but...i would bet that a newhire in the 190 will have better career earning potential than a CRJ captain (as your profile indicates). Maybe better job security too? How much is that worth?

 

[Skygod]

American Airlines first year pay: $35

Continental: $30

Delta: $48

Northwest: $30

United: $30

 

[PCL_128]

i might be wrong...but...i would bet that a newhire in the 190 will have better career earning potential than a CRJ captain (as your profile indicates). Maybe better job security too? How much is that worth?

As for job security, I doubt it. I don't think B6 will still be around 10 years from now. Just my opinion. The only real job security is in cargo nowdays.

You're certainly right about earning potential, but that's not the point. The point is that a 90-seat mainline pilot deserves a heck of a lot more than $40/hour second year. Any company that doesn't realize that isn't a company that "cares" for its employees as much as the B6 guys claim that Blue cares about them.

 

[PCL_128]

American Airlines first year pay: $35

Continental: $30

Delta: $48

Northwest: $30

United: $30

American second year pay: $71

Continental: $55

Delta: $66

Northwest: $57

United: $48

Jetblue: $40

You can try to polish that turd all you want, but those EMB rates are still a stinky, steaming pile. It's time for a union, boys.

 

[wndshr]

As for job security, I doubt it. I don't think B6 will still be around 10 years from now. Just my opinion. The only real job security is in cargo nowdays.

You're certainly right about earning potential, but that's not the point. The point is that a 90-seat mainline pilot deserves a heck of a lot more than $40/hour second year. Any company that doesn't realize that isn't a company that "cares" for its employees as much as the B6 guys claim that Blue cares about them.

you could be right about b6 not being around in ten years...that is the thing about the airline industry...catches a lot of us saying, "who woulda thought that XYZ airline would be gone...those poor guys/gals that got on back in (fill in the blank)" but if i had to place a bet on job security...i would not place a bet on a CRJ in delta colors! of course, just my opinion too!

when you say a 90 seat mainline pilot deserves....you are absolutely right. however, when you DECIDE to take a job at jetblue you are weighing more into the equation than absolute pay. ie, GROWTH, PRODUCTIVITY, PROFIT SHARING, MANAGEMENT, STOCK, ETC (how much do you think former US NW or DAL pilots would give out of their paychecks to find a management team who could actually run an airline? instead they have to give out of their paychecks AND keep the same management!)

if pay is all you want...then i agree...fly cargo and don't look back. unfortunately and fortunately that lifestyle does not agree with every type of pilot. sure, b6 pay in the emb is low....but if the 190 eventually proves itself a winner, the pilots subsidizing the start up costs now will be rewarded. that is what GOOD mangagement does. would you expect the same logic at another carrier?

 

[wndshr]

As for job security, I doubt it. I don't think B6 will still be around 10 years from now. Just my opinion. The only real job security is in cargo nowdays.

You're certainly right about earning potential, but that's not the point. The point is that a 90-seat mainline pilot deserves a heck of a lot more than $40/hour second year. Any company that doesn't realize that isn't a company that "cares" for its employees as much as the B6 guys claim that Blue cares about them.

you could be right about b6 not being around in ten years...that is the thing about the airline industry...catches a lot of us saying, "who woulda thought that XYZ airline would be gone...those poor guys/gals that got on back in (fill in the blank)" but if i had to place a bet on job security...i would not place a bet on a CRJ in delta colors! of course, just my opinion too!

when you say a 90 seat mainline pilot deserves....you are absolutely right. however, when you DECIDE to take a job at jetblue you are weighing more into the equation than absolute pay. ie, GROWTH, PRODUCTIVITY, PROFIT SHARING, MANAGEMENT, STOCK, ETC (how much do you think former US NW or DAL pilots would give out of their paychecks to find a management team who could actually run an airline? instead they have to give out of their paychecks AND keep the same management!)

if pay is all you want...then i agree...fly cargo and don't look back. unfortunately and fortunately that lifestyle does not agree with every type of pilot. sure, b6 pay in the emb is low....but if the 190 eventually proves itself a winner, the pilots subsidizing the start up costs now will be rewarded. that is what GOOD mangagement does. would you expect the same logic at another carrier?

 

[Skygod]

Second year pay on the EMB is $71 (plus time and a half over 70). You're looking in the wrong column . . . upgrade will be about 12 to 14 months . . .

 

[Blue Dude]

Second year pay on the EMB is $71 (plus time and a half over 70). Your looking in the wrong column . . . upgrade will be about 12 to 14 months . . .

Not to mention that none of the companies listed, except Continental, have anyone in any seat at the 1 or 2 year rates, and won't for the rest of the decade at least. That's something else to consider in the equation as well.

 

[JB Bus Drvr]

Hey PCL, I've got an idea. Why don't you interview here, get hired and start a union. That way you can have first hand experience on what goes on here and you'll be able to have a better informed opinion of what goes on here. No Blue Kool-Aid, just re-read my post and understand what I said. I personnally don't care for the 190 rates, didn't care for the starting 320 rates when I first started, but after a year and a half in business, 320 rates raised approx. 19%. You need to understand you have to start somewhere. By the way, how many other companys have you found in your vast aviation experience where the senior guys have raised he!! about junior pay rates. I don't think many.

 

[MercuryPilot]

Yeah, it takes a lot of "caring" to pay a professional air line pilot $37/hour to fly a 90-seat jet. And wow, it even goes up to $40/hour the second year! Yipee!!! That kool-aid must taste pretty dang good.

To be accurate, the E-190 is a 100-seat jet. Also, our E190 FOs will be CAs in about a year and receiving more compensation.

MP

 

[PCL_128]

Second year pay on the EMB is $71 (plus time and a half over 70). You're looking in the wrong column . . . upgrade will be about 12 to 14 months . . .

Wrong attitude. Eventually, someone is going to end up stuck as an FO on those horrible payrates because the wild growth will slow down or stop and an upgrade will be nowhere in sight.

 

[Blue Dude]

Wrong attitude. Eventually, someone is going to end up stuck as an FO on those horrible payrates because the wild growth will slow down or stop and an upgrade will be nowhere in sight.

If past history is any guide, the pay rates will be jacked up significantly before anyone is stuck with them for very long. The planes just started flying a couple of months ago. Come back in five years, and if the rates are still the same, you would have a valid point.

 

[PCL_128]

If past history is any guide, the pay rates will be jacked up significantly before anyone is stuck with them for very long. The planes just started flying a couple of months ago. Come back in five years, and if the rates are still the same, you would have a valid point.

I don't care about five years from now, your EMB payrates are exerting a downward pressure on the industry right now. How is anyone to negotiate a decent 70-seat rate when your 100-seat rate isn't even decent? The answer everyone gets from management is simple: "The JetBlue pilots are willing to fly 100-seaters for $40/hour, so why won't you fly 70-seaters for that price?" DAL and NWA pilots are being forced to match your EMB rates for all 90-100 seat airplanes because that is the new benchmark that any BK judge is going to look at. The entire industry is affected by this, not just your pilots.

 

[That Guy]

I don't care about five years from now, your EMB payrates are exerting a downward pressure on the industry right now. How is anyone to negotiate a decent 70-seat rate when your 100-seat rate isn't even decent? The answer everyone gets from management is simple: "The JetBlue pilots are willing to fly 100-seaters for $40/hour, so why won't you fly 70-seaters for that price?"

The entire industry has been affected by deregulation, the economy, and fuel prices, just to name a few. It continues to evolve, and we can either adapt or become dinosaurs.

You and I may not like it, PCL, but we live in a very different world than the one most of our predecessors had operated in.

Only you and your fellow pilots know what you can and cannot negotiate in your CBA, and for you/your pilot group to take the "...JetBlue pilots are willing to fly for (insert a pay rate here)" statement put forth by your management seriously is a joke. If I were on your negotiating committee, I would laugh in their faces when they say it. Simply put, your company is not JetBlue. You folks have to negotiate the best pay rates/QOL contractual issues you can, for your specific situation. To blame JetBlue payrates for anything involving your company or contract negotiations is foolhardy and playing into the hands of management. In the era of regulation, it was much easier to do an apples to apples comparison of aircraft pay rates by seating size or comparable type, but not anymore. The management knows it, they are simply throwing out the standard chaff in hopes of getting you guys wrapped up in it and diverting your attention from the reality of the situation.

I really hope your pilot group does well in your current/future negotiations. I also hope you come to the conclusion that pitting one carrier or pilot group against another does nothing to help ANY of us out - unless you're management.

TG

 

[B6Guy]

Excellent!

Excellent post That Guy. Sums it up very well.


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