A few questions for the Jet Blue pilots on this forum

[MercuryPilot]

blah, blah, blah...JetBlue's dragging down the industry...blah, blah, blah...it's all JetBlue's fault...blah, blah, blah

sounds like a broken record

Wasn't this exact thread on here last month? And the month before? And the month before that?...

 

[Smoking Man]

Sounds the same to me, I wonder if I donated to the RJDC if that in combination with me going to the 190 will add to the topic!

Does the RJDC take pay pal?


See you in 11+ years, at jetBlue

 

[Skygod]

Your union can't get you pay rates better than ours . . . but you want us to get a union. Good sales pitch! Where do I sign up?

 

[mrtoy2]

In my previous life (at a certain LCC carrier in bankrupcy), we were asked the "...jetBlue flys for $51/hr (airbus first year pay) and we need to get to their cost structure so will have to do the same". I was upset at this as well. The problem is that management, and some on this board, don't look at the ways jetBlue pilots are compensated. They only see: $51/hr and a 70hr guar. and stop right there. I did the same at the time. If you do a little more research than that though B6 pays at 150% anything over 70 hours. Average schedules are around 83 hours. You do the math. If you still don't like it, you don't have to apply.

 

[Blue Dude]

I don't care about five years from now, your EMB payrates are exerting a downward pressure on the industry right now.

etc. etc.

None of this has anything to do with the statement I responded to, which was:

Eventually, someone is going to end up stuck as an FO on those horrible payrates because the wild growth will slow down or stop and an upgrade will be nowhere in sight.

I thought I gave you a very succinct answer as to why things are the way they are, and you ignored it completely by bringing up something else. But I'll answer anyway.

Our equipment rollout schedule, cost structure, and projected operating costs don't take your particular bargaining situation into account, so your problems are frankly irrelevent to when and how much our pay rates will rise.

There is no union at JetBlue because most pilots know the score and can judge for themselves whether or not there is a need for one (i.e. if or how badly they're being screwed). As far as how that affects you, I'll be blunt. It's just too bad. My paychecks don't have your name on them, and if we raised the mythical bar just to make you happy with us, it would greatly harm the rollout process of an airplane that would probably be operated by a regional airline in any other airline system. Scope is a critical enough issue that, in my opinion, it's worth the initial pay hit to keep it in house.

Ultimately, if you're stupid enough to buy the line that you have to take the same pay we have, even though your business model is completely different, then there's no hope for you anyway. Your pattern bargaining needs are strictly speaking, not our problem. Does that make us selfish? You bet it does. But then, that's exactly what we all do. We take into account the specific situation at our specific properties and act accordingly. Nobody - nobody - writes their contracts with "the good of the industry" in mind, only the good of their own company's pilots. That's the hard truth.

You can afford to be altruistic when you bitch about someone else's pay rates affecting your own negotiations, but if the situation were reversed, you wouldn't walk that talk, you'd merely act in your own best interests. In our case, the pay rates are disappointingly low, but there's a reason for it. If in a few years, nothing has changed, then you'll see a lot more pushing back on our part. But for now, two months into the deployment, we're all taking a wait and see attitude on how it's going to work out. That timing sucks for you, but it works for us. Sorry.

 

[MercuryPilot]

Thanks, Blue Dude. Very well said.
MP

 

[PCL_128]

Your pattern bargaining needs are strictly speaking, not our problem.

And the needs of your pilots to jumpseat to JFK are strictly speaking, not my problem either. Are you starting to see why some of the NWA guys are giving your pilots such a hard time on the jumpseat? This "screw you, we've got ours" attitude of the JBlue pilots is getting old. I have yet to deny a JBlue jumpseater, and I probably won't in the future either, but I do understand where the few NWA pilots that have are coming from. Your attitude is hard to take when the rest of us are struggling just to hold onto the flying we already have.

 

[Blue Dude]

Oh, bullsh*t. Name a single bargaining unit that has kept the needs of the industry above their own. There isn't one. This isn't a "screw you, we've got ours" attitude any more than any other pilot group. There is no duty, requirement, or even courteous expectation, that we should harm our business to make your bargaining easier. No pilot group has ever done so, and we won't be the first. That's all there is to it.

You are again attempting to shift focus to yet another area that wasn't even addressed in your previous comments. Try to stay on topic, hm?


I am quite amused at this line:

Your attitude is hard to take when the rest of us are struggling just to hold onto the flying we already have.

Isn't that what's been accomplished here? Holding onto ALL of our flying? Not contracting it out to the lowest bidder, whoever that might be at the moment? You should be rejoicing that you have a successful precedent for keeping all of the flying in house.

 

[PCL_128]

There is no duty, requirement, or even courteous expectation, that we should harm our business to make your bargaining easier.

Of course, and I haven't suggested that you do so. There is no danger of your business suffering any "harm" here. You work for a profitable company, and as such, the company has the ability to pay you a fair wage that doesn't undercut the rest of the industry and force us into tough bargaining positions. If your company was on the brink of financial ruin then I certainly wouldn't expect you to demand higher rates on the EMB flying, but with steady profits for years Jetblue can certainly pay you the going rate for 100-seat flying without any risk to profitability.

Isn't that what's been accomplished here? Holding onto ALL of our flying? Not contracting it out to the lowest bidder, whoever that might be at the moment? You should be rejoicing that you have a successful precedent for keeping all of the flying in house.

There isn't any succesful precedent here at all. All you've done is give management at other companies the ammo to say "If you want to keep the flying, then you'll have to do it for JetBlue rates. The JetBlue pilots don't seem to mind it. In fact, they defend it!" Besides, you haven't even managed to really secure the flying at your own airline. Without a union and a CBA with scope, JetBlue can send those airplanes to another bidder anytime they want if you guys start complaining about the rates and mentioning a union. They have just managed to hold something else over your head to keep the union talk at bay. Again, no matter how much you polish that turd, it's still a turd.

 

[BeCareful!]

US Airways will own JB before 2010.....mark my words.

 

[jbucpt]

Of course, and I haven't suggested that you do so. There is no danger of your business suffering any "harm" here. You work for a profitable company, and as such, the company has the ability to pay you a fair wage that doesn't undercut the rest of the industry and force us into tough bargaining positions. If your company was on the brink of financial ruin then I certainly wouldn't expect you to demand higher rates on the EMB flying, but with steady profits for years Jetblue can certainly pay you the going rate for 100-seat flying without any risk to profitability.


There isn't any succesful precedent here at all. All you've done is give management at other companies the ammo to say "If you want to keep the flying, then you'll have to do it for JetBlue rates. The JetBlue pilots don't seem to mind it. In fact, they defend it!" Besides, you haven't even managed to really secure the flying at your own airline. Without a union and a CBA with scope, JetBlue can send those airplanes to another bidder anytime they want if you guys start complaining about the rates and mentioning a union. They have just managed to hold something else over your head to keep the union talk at bay. Again, no matter how much you polish that turd, it's still a turd.

i guess you havent seen what happen to the ALPA REPRESENTED PILOTS at TRANS STATES AIRLINES. they did not agree to the 70 seat pay rates and guess what happened??? GJS.

so much for their CBA that stated all flying will be done by TRANS STATES ALPA PILOTS...................

 

[Boeingman]

Hello pot...meet kettle.

Again, no matter how much you polish that turd, it's still a turd.

You mean like paying for training or buying your job at Gulfstream PCL_128?

Interesting how you're spouting off about the evils of the industry (with pay and benefits) and what should be done, when in fact the very root of the problem is SJS and people willing to work for nothing. This is the very same thing you jumpstarted your own career with. After a hefty payment by into their bank account.

As long as there are pilots that subscribe to those like yourself, management will always have a pool of dolts to replace the current pilot force.

Just think, right now there is probably someone at Gulfstream just drooling over your job right now and would do it for half price.

What goes around comes around kiddo.

 

[727RedTails]

Just out of curiousity, PCL 128 where did you get your BE1900 time?

 

[Blue Dude]

Of course, and I haven't suggested that you do so. There is no danger of your business suffering any "harm" here. You work for a profitable company, and as such, the company has the ability to pay you a fair wage that doesn't undercut the rest of the industry and force us into tough bargaining positions. If your company was on the brink of financial ruin then I certainly wouldn't expect you to demand higher rates on the EMB flying, but with steady profits for years Jetblue can certainly pay you the going rate for 100-seat flying without any risk to profitability.

Nobody knows that. Nobody has ever successfully deployed a 100-seat airliner in an LCC model. It's never been done. The idea is to start out with a wage that will almost certainly work, then raise it once we get some operational experience on the plane and have some hard data. That is far preferable to starting too high, just so PCL_128 won't be mad at us anymore, then having to lower it, even a little bit if the plane doesn't perform to expectations. They never want to have to cut pay or jobs, for any reason.

BTW, we didn't make any money for 2005, so it's not like we're swimming in profits. There's more going on here than you know, so your vote doesn't count. In short, you don't know jack about the operation or the factors involved. Rightly so, you only focus on what affects you. But I'm getting tired of arguing with uninformed bomb throwers, so you'll have to have the last word. I'm done here.

There isn't any succesful precedent here at all. All you've done is give management at other companies the ammo to say "If you want to keep the flying, then you'll have to do it for JetBlue rates. The JetBlue pilots don't seem to mind it. In fact, they defend it!" Besides, you haven't even managed to really secure the flying at your own airline. Without a union and a CBA with scope, JetBlue can send those airplanes to another bidder anytime they want if you guys start complaining about the rates and mentioning a union. They have just managed to hold something else over your head to keep the union talk at bay. Again, no matter how much you polish that turd, it's still a turd.

The successful precedent I refer to is showing that you can run a successful operation with a high quality product, hopefully make money at it, all without outsourcing to the lowest bidder. That should interest you mightily. Or do you work for one of the lowest bidder, code sharing leeches? Sucks to be you, then.

 

[PCL_128]

Just think, right now there is probably someone at Gulfstream just drooling over your job right now and would do it for half price.

Probably so. There's one big difference between an industry newbie at GIA and a pilot at JetBlue though: the GIA newbie doesn't know any better, but the JetBlue pilot does. The GIA pilot doesn't realize how he's harming the industry because he's too new to everything to be involved in the union politics and such. The JetBlue pilot knows that he is harming the careers of pilots at other airlines, but says "it's not my problem."

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Bull$hit.

 

[727RedTails]

Just out of curiousity, PCL 128 where did you get your BE1900 time?

 

[PCL_128]

Just out of curiousity, PCL 128 where did you get your BE1900 time?

GIA. I thought that was common knowledge around here.

 

[Skygod]

PCL: it seems that B6's domestic per diem rate ($2.00/hr) is greater than that of American, Continental, Delta, Northwest and United.

Why does not the all-powerful ALPA match our per diem rate? Will JetBlue Raises the Bar be the headline in Air Line Pilot magazine? If we get the union you so much want us to have can we expect a reduction in per diem rates down to industry average? Would a union allow a JetBlue Express to fly the E-Jets outside our seniority system?

 

[seahorse]

PCL 128 you knew exactly what you were getting into when you gave $18,000 to that airline, in order to fly revenue passengers around. Don't use the excuse that you were some "newbie" and didn't know. Common sense can figure out what is happening. You are the biggest hippocrate on this board.

Jetblue pilots need to stop rationalizing their horrible 100-seat pay rates with statements of upgrade potention. Seriously Jetblue guys, shut up on that garbage.

 

[Boeingman]

Probably so. There's one big difference between an industry newbie at GIA and a pilot at JetBlue though: the GIA newbie doesn't know any better, but the JetBlue pilot does. The GIA pilot doesn't realize how he's harming the industry because he's too new to everything to be involved in the union politics and such. The JetBlue pilot knows that he is harming the careers of pilots at other airlines, but says "it's not my problem."

I call that "rationalization". PCL, what you are saying may have a very limited amount of merit but given your background, you are a hypocrite. Buying your way in is not much different than scabbing in the sense they both reek of opportunism.

Either way, saying it is ok just because the "newbie" doesn't know any better is like trying to strain sh!t out of ice cream. Once it gets in there you'll never get it out. You will never lose that stigma.

Honestly listening to you discuss many subjects is ratehr comical given your "jumpstart" method within the industry.

 

[That Guy]

US Airways will own JB before 2010.....mark my words.

LMFAO - yeah, and they're going to bring back Stevie Wonder and Rakesh Gangbang to do it, too. Along with a revival of impressions for excellence, they are going to be, as Stevie once put it, "THE world class carrier."

Awww, that was good. Haven't belly laughed like that in ages. Thanks!

 

[That Guy]

GIA. I thought that was common knowledge around here.

Talk about lowering the bar. At least JetBlue pilots get paid to fly, and not the other way around.

You've lost all credibility with me, PCL. I thought you might be slightly misguided. Now I know you actually believe your management when they tell you to compare your pilot group's situation to JetBlue, because you're either extremely naive, or a huge toolbag.

 

[SUNDOWN]

GIA. I thought that was common knowledge around here.

Ok you have officially lost all credibility. NEXT

 

[Blue Dude]

GIA. I thought that was common knowledge around here.

Bwahahahahaha! And you're lecturing me? That is too rich.

 

[pitotstatic]

Hmm,

I am then wondering. What is the reason for the 5 year contract. What happens if someone decides to quit beore the 5 years are up? Is there a financial penalty for the pilot?

 

[Blue Dude]

You can quit anytime you want with no penalty. My best guess is that the contract is time limited to protect the company in the case of an industry downturn. The company is obliged to pay you minimum guarantee for the life of the contract whether or not there's any flying for you to do. A five year contract is kind of a catastrophic stopgap so that the'y don't have to pay you guarantee until you die. Since they'd have to furlough in reverse seniority order, what this means is that the first to go would have the most to gain in terms of guarantee pay, since presumably they'd have the most time left on their contracts. This makes them very expensive to furlough. This is as good a method as any of providing a de facto no-furlough clause. So in a sense, the 5 year limit protects both parties.

 

[holdon]

And the needs of your pilots to jumpseat to JFK are strictly speaking, not my problem either. Are you starting to see why some of the NWA guys are giving your pilots such a hard time on the jumpseat? This "screw you, we've got ours" attitude of the JBlue pilots is getting old. I have yet to deny a JBlue jumpseater, and I probably won't in the future either, but I do understand where the few NWA pilots that have are coming from. Your attitude is hard to take when the rest of us are struggling just to hold onto the flying we already have.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it NWA that declined MANY Ticket Price increases in the 90's. While Airlines were trying to raise tickets above 1980 prices it was NWA that wouldn't match fares and drive the prices lower.

I don't see that attitude at JB anymore than any other airline. Were just trying to make a living like the next guy. I would never give a guy a hard time commuting home to his family or going to work to pay his bills. I'm disgusted that professionals at NW have taken this stance (I know not all but definitely 1 to many.) It's funny pilots are there own worse enemies.

Good luck to us all...

 

[IB6 UB9]

I think PCL_128 has done a fine job of establishing his credibility, and any further responses to this little guy are just a waste of your time.

 

[Boeingman]

I think PCL_128 has done a fine job of establishing his credibility, and any further responses to this little guy are just a waste of your time.

I think he is trying to find an ice cream strainer.