A few questions for the Jet Blue pilots on this forum

[CAL EWR B737]

I have heard some rumors and I would appreciate if you could clarify them for me. Please don't take any of my questions the wrong way, I'm not taking shots at anyone I would just appreciate some honest answers. As a side note I bought tickets for myself and family two summers ago on Jet Blue and enjoyed flying on your airline. You have a good product.

1: Does Jet Blue make pilots sign a five year employment contract?

2: I have heard that some pilots are not getting their contracts renewed, any truth to this? Are there more than just a few this is happening too? If this is true how do the rank and file pilots feel about this?

3: Why does Jet Blue need an employment contract? If you work for a carrier that doesn't have a collective bargaining agent (union) and they don't have a collective bargaining agreement (contract) isn't it hire and fire at will except for discrimination of some kind?

4: Does having an employment contract make it harder to organize and get a union on the property?

5: Is it true Jet Blue doesn't provide a system seniority list with DOB to the pilot group?

6: Is there any talk of union at Jet Blue?

7: Lastly is EWR a co domicile with JFK and LGA or is it flown as part of a pairing from other domicles?

Thank you in advance for you responses. Please no condescending or arrogant replies just looking for some factual information. I think there is a lot of misinformation out there.

 

[Neil Eubich]

I have heard some rumors and I would appreciate if you could clarify them for me. Please don't take any of my questions the wrong way, I'm not taking shots at anyone I would just appreciate some honest answers. As a side note I bought tickets for myself and family two summers ago on Jet Blue and enjoyed flying on your airline. You have a good product.

1: Does Jet Blue make pilots sign a five year employment contract?

2: I have heard that some pilots are not getting their contracts renewed, any truth to this? Are there more than just a few this is happening too? If this is true how do the rank and file pilots feel about this?

3: Why does Jet Blue need an employment contract? If you work for a carrier that doesn't have a collective bargaining agent (union) and they don't have a collective bargaining agreement (contract) isn't it hire and fire at will except for discrimination of some kind?

4: Does having an employment contract make it harder to organize and get a union on the property?

5: Is it true Jet Blue doesn't provide a system seniority list with DOB to the pilot group?

6: Is there any talk of union at Jet Blue?

7: Lastly is EWR a co domicile with JFK and LGA or is it flown as part of a pairing from other domicles?

Thank you in advance for you responses. Please no condescending or arrogant replies just looking for some factual information. I think there is a lot of misinformation out there.

Dude...the fact that you have 80 posts on this forum tells me you know how to navigate it a little bit. Based on that, I would erase this post and do a search of jetblue..I assure you that you will get the answers to all of your questions without having to put up with the sarcastic responses you're going to get.......

Good luck......

 

[Maj]

CAL EWR B737I have heard some rumors and I would appreciate if you could clarify them for me. Please don't take any of my questions the wrong way, I'm not taking shots at anyone I would just appreciate some honest answers. As a side note I bought tickets for myself and family two summers ago on Jet Blue and enjoyed flying on your airline. You have a good product.

1: Does Jet Blue make pilots sign a five year employment contract? Yes

2: I have heard that some pilots are not getting their contracts renewed, any truth to this? Are there more than just a few this is happening too? If this is true how do the rank and file pilots feel about this? Simply not true. There are a few that have surpassed the 5-yr point that probably should go...but they're still here.

3: Why does Jet Blue need an employment contract? If you work for a carrier that doesn't have a collective bargaining agent (union) and they don't have a collective bargaining agreement (contract) isn't it hire and fire at will except for discrimination of some kind? There are surely others more familiar w/contract than me but it does protect the individual as well. Hourly rates, min gar., vacation, etc. are all spelled out as well as a 'no furlough' clause, disability ins. etc. It also spells out specific reasons why an individual can be terminated. Pretty common-sensical stuff...willful damage to co. property, flying sans pants, etc.

4: Does having an employment contract make it harder to organize and get a union on the property? As far as I know, there's nothing preventing us from organizing at the moment. There is a blurb in the 'contract' that states that union employees are not eligible for profit sharing. To me, that seems to be the only documented discouragement to organizing. There will be no P.S. this year so we'll see how much of an influence that is in the near future.

5: Is it true Jet Blue doesn't provide a system seniority list with DOB to the pilot group? True. One of the line dudes put out a homemade Access file a while back and took some major heat for it. It had a block for DOB but it wasn't filled in. While it'd be nice to have, we have a pretty young pilot group, so there's no real need to see what # you'll retire at. Also, with only the 'Bus, and I guess the E-190 now, there's no dreams of 'when can I hold the 777 Capt or 747 Capt seats. At least for now.

6: Is there any talk of union at Jet Blue? I guess there's always talk. Personally, I'd be more open to a SWAPA type arrangement. With over 1200 pilots at the moment, IMHO I think it's inevitable.

7: Lastly is EWR a co domicile with JFK and LGA or is it flown as part of a pairing from other domicles? Flown as parts of JFK pairings. However, all JFK pairings start/stop at JFK. The FLL-based folks do the LGA stuff. There might be a couple of exceptions month to month but if a trip starts/stops at EWR or LGA I think the company provides limo service back to JFK.

Thank you in advance for you responses. Please no condescending or arrogant replies just looking for some factual information. I think there is a lot of misinformation out there.

 

[CAL EWR B737]

My questions are pretty straight forward. Yes, I guess I have 80 posts but I pretty much only read CAL related stuff. Is there one particular thread that addresses most of my questions?

If my questions piss off some people then all can say life is too short, chill out! Last time I checked this is a forum for pilots to communicate. I do my best to answer questions others have about CAL even though they may have been posted several times in the past. This is a large forum sometimes the same questions get asked repeatedly.

 

[CAL EWR B737]

Maj

Thank you for your informative response.

 

[BigMotorToter]

Just to clarify, there is a system senority list. Just like any other airline I have worked at. It just doesn't have DOB next to the names, but when one guy retires, you move up a number. You can access it every day if you want to see if you have moved up or not. I had heard about the same pilot who put together a senority list but it had all kinds of info like address's and phone numbers etc... thats why it got canned. I think if someone wanted to put the time into it and write a program that predicted what number you would be in 10-20 years etc... without personal data, it could be done no problem.

 

[Maj]

Good correction. I have the Access list and I think the problem stemmed from the fact that he included who bypassed upgade and who had a seat lock for busting upgrade. It was supposed to be used as a tool to predict upgrade timing. There's also a previous company block. It only goes to 480-ish.

On a related note, I'd rather have a company pilot website (and not airlinepilotcentral.com) forum instead of a seniority list w/DOB. I'm not a computer genius (and I don't volunteer/work for free), but I find it hard to believe we can't make that happen.


Two posts for me in one day is more than all of 2005 I think. Better get back to lurking.

 

[AKAAB]

He wasn't the first to try to put together a seniority list. One of the guys in the first couple of classes took heat for trying to start one. All attempts to create a single seniority list have been quashed by management for "privacy" reasons. The Access list was going to be voluntary, by the way.

I hope Bushy will convince them that a seniority list is not an evil thing, and in fact, is mandatory if you are going to use a seniority-based system.

 

[sandman2122]

Any talk of Jetblue in SAT?

 

[scarlet]

why do jetblue care about privacy they did not a year or so ago when they gave people private information out? REMEMBER--why does the company care?

 

[JB Bus Drvr]

why do jetblue care about privacy they did not a year or so ago when they gave people private information out? REMEMBER--why does the company care?

Actually, it was about three years ago by request of DOD and Homeland Security. All personal info was deleted but a private contractor bidding on a DOD contract got the info.from DOD and put names and other personal info. on the list and released samples to try to get the business.

Company learned real fast that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. As far as caring, well whether you agree or disagree (not for flame bait), the company really does care for us, the employees, on most things and should be rated well above average in this area.

 

[imfloodedII]

I received someone elses "Welcome to Jetblue" letter after interviewing last year.

 

[Skank]

why do jetblue care about privacy they did not a year or so ago when they gave people private information out? REMEMBER--why does the company care?

A bunch of Airlines were in the same boat. Outrageous, trying to keep terrorists off the airplanes! What were they thinking?

 

[Blue Dude]

1: Does Jet Blue make pilots sign a five year employment contract?

Yes.

2: I have heard that some pilots are not getting their contracts renewed, any truth to this? Are there more than just a few this is happening too? If this is true how do the rank and file pilots feel about this?

No. It's never happened.

3: Why does Jet Blue need an employment contract? If you work for a carrier that doesn't have a collective bargaining agent (union) and they don't have a collective bargaining agreement (contract) isn't it hire and fire at will except for discrimination of some kind?

Among other things, you'll be paid guarantee for the life of the contract. There's a powerful disincentive for furoughing. The contract protection works both ways. And you can only be fired for specific causes, not at will.

4: Does having an employment contract make it harder to organize and get a union on the property?

No more than not having one at all would. If there was a will, there would be a way. There's no will.

5: Is it true Jet Blue doesn't provide a system seniority list with DOB to the pilot group?

There is a master system seniority list, but DOB isn't on it. That info isn't available for privacy reasons. Been there, done that.

6: Is there any talk of union at Jet Blue?

There's always talk. No action, though, and not much talk of any.

7: Lastly is EWR a co domicile with JFK and LGA or is it flown as part of a pairing from other domicles?

EWR isn't a co-domicile. For that matter, LGA isn't a co-domicile with JFK either. The only co-domiciles we have are FLL and PBI.

 

[PCL_128]

As far as caring, well whether you agree or disagree (not for flame bait), the company really does care for us, the employees, on most things and should be rated well above average in this area.

Yeah, it takes a lot of "caring" to pay a professional air line pilot $37/hour to fly a 90-seat jet. And wow, it even goes up to $40/hour the second year! Yipee!!! That kool-aid must taste pretty dang good.

 

[wndshr]

Yeah, it takes a lot of "caring" to pay a professional air line pilot $37/hour to fly a 90-seat jet. And wow, it even goes up to $40/hour the second year! Yipee!!! That kool-aid must taste pretty dang good.

you are right! the 90 seat rate is pretty shabby! Did you ever see the A320 rate when B6 first started?

i might be wrong...but...i would bet that a newhire in the 190 will have better career earning potential than a CRJ captain (as your profile indicates). Maybe better job security too? How much is that worth?

 

[Skygod]

American Airlines first year pay: $35

Continental: $30

Delta: $48

Northwest: $30

United: $30

 

[PCL_128]

i might be wrong...but...i would bet that a newhire in the 190 will have better career earning potential than a CRJ captain (as your profile indicates). Maybe better job security too? How much is that worth?

As for job security, I doubt it. I don't think B6 will still be around 10 years from now. Just my opinion. The only real job security is in cargo nowdays.

You're certainly right about earning potential, but that's not the point. The point is that a 90-seat mainline pilot deserves a heck of a lot more than $40/hour second year. Any company that doesn't realize that isn't a company that "cares" for its employees as much as the B6 guys claim that Blue cares about them.

 

[PCL_128]

American Airlines first year pay: $35

Continental: $30

Delta: $48

Northwest: $30

United: $30

American second year pay: $71

Continental: $55

Delta: $66

Northwest: $57

United: $48

Jetblue: $40

You can try to polish that turd all you want, but those EMB rates are still a stinky, steaming pile. It's time for a union, boys.

 

[wndshr]

As for job security, I doubt it. I don't think B6 will still be around 10 years from now. Just my opinion. The only real job security is in cargo nowdays.

You're certainly right about earning potential, but that's not the point. The point is that a 90-seat mainline pilot deserves a heck of a lot more than $40/hour second year. Any company that doesn't realize that isn't a company that "cares" for its employees as much as the B6 guys claim that Blue cares about them.

you could be right about b6 not being around in ten years...that is the thing about the airline industry...catches a lot of us saying, "who woulda thought that XYZ airline would be gone...those poor guys/gals that got on back in (fill in the blank)" but if i had to place a bet on job security...i would not place a bet on a CRJ in delta colors! of course, just my opinion too!

when you say a 90 seat mainline pilot deserves....you are absolutely right. however, when you DECIDE to take a job at jetblue you are weighing more into the equation than absolute pay. ie, GROWTH, PRODUCTIVITY, PROFIT SHARING, MANAGEMENT, STOCK, ETC (how much do you think former US NW or DAL pilots would give out of their paychecks to find a management team who could actually run an airline? instead they have to give out of their paychecks AND keep the same management!)

if pay is all you want...then i agree...fly cargo and don't look back. unfortunately and fortunately that lifestyle does not agree with every type of pilot. sure, b6 pay in the emb is low....but if the 190 eventually proves itself a winner, the pilots subsidizing the start up costs now will be rewarded. that is what GOOD mangagement does. would you expect the same logic at another carrier?

 

[wndshr]

As for job security, I doubt it. I don't think B6 will still be around 10 years from now. Just my opinion. The only real job security is in cargo nowdays.

You're certainly right about earning potential, but that's not the point. The point is that a 90-seat mainline pilot deserves a heck of a lot more than $40/hour second year. Any company that doesn't realize that isn't a company that "cares" for its employees as much as the B6 guys claim that Blue cares about them.

you could be right about b6 not being around in ten years...that is the thing about the airline industry...catches a lot of us saying, "who woulda thought that XYZ airline would be gone...those poor guys/gals that got on back in (fill in the blank)" but if i had to place a bet on job security...i would not place a bet on a CRJ in delta colors! of course, just my opinion too!

when you say a 90 seat mainline pilot deserves....you are absolutely right. however, when you DECIDE to take a job at jetblue you are weighing more into the equation than absolute pay. ie, GROWTH, PRODUCTIVITY, PROFIT SHARING, MANAGEMENT, STOCK, ETC (how much do you think former US NW or DAL pilots would give out of their paychecks to find a management team who could actually run an airline? instead they have to give out of their paychecks AND keep the same management!)

if pay is all you want...then i agree...fly cargo and don't look back. unfortunately and fortunately that lifestyle does not agree with every type of pilot. sure, b6 pay in the emb is low....but if the 190 eventually proves itself a winner, the pilots subsidizing the start up costs now will be rewarded. that is what GOOD mangagement does. would you expect the same logic at another carrier?

 

[Skygod]

Second year pay on the EMB is $71 (plus time and a half over 70). You're looking in the wrong column . . . upgrade will be about 12 to 14 months . . .

 

[Blue Dude]

Second year pay on the EMB is $71 (plus time and a half over 70). Your looking in the wrong column . . . upgrade will be about 12 to 14 months . . .

Not to mention that none of the companies listed, except Continental, have anyone in any seat at the 1 or 2 year rates, and won't for the rest of the decade at least. That's something else to consider in the equation as well.

 

[JB Bus Drvr]

Hey PCL, I've got an idea. Why don't you interview here, get hired and start a union. That way you can have first hand experience on what goes on here and you'll be able to have a better informed opinion of what goes on here. No Blue Kool-Aid, just re-read my post and understand what I said. I personnally don't care for the 190 rates, didn't care for the starting 320 rates when I first started, but after a year and a half in business, 320 rates raised approx. 19%. You need to understand you have to start somewhere. By the way, how many other companys have you found in your vast aviation experience where the senior guys have raised he!! about junior pay rates. I don't think many.

 

[MercuryPilot]

Yeah, it takes a lot of "caring" to pay a professional air line pilot $37/hour to fly a 90-seat jet. And wow, it even goes up to $40/hour the second year! Yipee!!! That kool-aid must taste pretty dang good.

To be accurate, the E-190 is a 100-seat jet. Also, our E190 FOs will be CAs in about a year and receiving more compensation.

MP

 

[PCL_128]

Second year pay on the EMB is $71 (plus time and a half over 70). You're looking in the wrong column . . . upgrade will be about 12 to 14 months . . .

Wrong attitude. Eventually, someone is going to end up stuck as an FO on those horrible payrates because the wild growth will slow down or stop and an upgrade will be nowhere in sight.

 

[Blue Dude]

Wrong attitude. Eventually, someone is going to end up stuck as an FO on those horrible payrates because the wild growth will slow down or stop and an upgrade will be nowhere in sight.

If past history is any guide, the pay rates will be jacked up significantly before anyone is stuck with them for very long. The planes just started flying a couple of months ago. Come back in five years, and if the rates are still the same, you would have a valid point.

 

[PCL_128]

If past history is any guide, the pay rates will be jacked up significantly before anyone is stuck with them for very long. The planes just started flying a couple of months ago. Come back in five years, and if the rates are still the same, you would have a valid point.

I don't care about five years from now, your EMB payrates are exerting a downward pressure on the industry right now. How is anyone to negotiate a decent 70-seat rate when your 100-seat rate isn't even decent? The answer everyone gets from management is simple: "The JetBlue pilots are willing to fly 100-seaters for $40/hour, so why won't you fly 70-seaters for that price?" DAL and NWA pilots are being forced to match your EMB rates for all 90-100 seat airplanes because that is the new benchmark that any BK judge is going to look at. The entire industry is affected by this, not just your pilots.

 

[That Guy]

I don't care about five years from now, your EMB payrates are exerting a downward pressure on the industry right now. How is anyone to negotiate a decent 70-seat rate when your 100-seat rate isn't even decent? The answer everyone gets from management is simple: "The JetBlue pilots are willing to fly 100-seaters for $40/hour, so why won't you fly 70-seaters for that price?"

The entire industry has been affected by deregulation, the economy, and fuel prices, just to name a few. It continues to evolve, and we can either adapt or become dinosaurs.

You and I may not like it, PCL, but we live in a very different world than the one most of our predecessors had operated in.

Only you and your fellow pilots know what you can and cannot negotiate in your CBA, and for you/your pilot group to take the "...JetBlue pilots are willing to fly for (insert a pay rate here)" statement put forth by your management seriously is a joke. If I were on your negotiating committee, I would laugh in their faces when they say it. Simply put, your company is not JetBlue. You folks have to negotiate the best pay rates/QOL contractual issues you can, for your specific situation. To blame JetBlue payrates for anything involving your company or contract negotiations is foolhardy and playing into the hands of management. In the era of regulation, it was much easier to do an apples to apples comparison of aircraft pay rates by seating size or comparable type, but not anymore. The management knows it, they are simply throwing out the standard chaff in hopes of getting you guys wrapped up in it and diverting your attention from the reality of the situation.

I really hope your pilot group does well in your current/future negotiations. I also hope you come to the conclusion that pitting one carrier or pilot group against another does nothing to help ANY of us out - unless you're management.

TG

 

[B6Guy]

Excellent!

Excellent post That Guy. Sums it up very well.


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