A Dear Jack Letter.....

[PHXFLYR]

TWA Dude Can you explain your last sentence regarding the inability of USAirways to survive the loss of ALPA?

PHXFLYR

 

[PositiveRate]

Good post MK82man.

They've let out enough rope to do you know what. It's just ashame that we've wasted so much time.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

From MK82Man
We are on a road to nowhere thanks to the AAA MEC Leadership. I really feel like the East is sending the entire ship into the Abyss. Kind of like the Vikings setting out except you know this ends in disaster.

The rank and file US Airways East pilots are so disgruntled that nobody is willing to step forward to try to right the sinking ship. It’s like all the volunteer spirit is tapped out and their energy is just sapped. We’ve not seen any attempt at a Recall of their Leadership or any mass organized attempt to “correct the AAA MEC.” Of course, the AAA MEC doesn’t tell the members everything that is happening (unlike the AWA MEC). And USAPA continues to gather steam in Philly. Sooooo, my guess is that the AAA Leadership will do nothing, or dance around with some weak half-hearted resolutions in an attempt to placate Prater. If they are smart they will do the same dance “working towards creative solutions” that Prater and National has done since the Award was announced in May. I figure the AAA Council ought to get six months, since it took Prater six months to send ‘em the “gun to your head” letter.

ALPA will take control of the MEC and it will further alienate the AAA rank and file. They are too far gone. The Moderates over there just don’t care enough to be involved, honestly, who could blame ‘em. They will wait to watch the renegades implode themselves. USAPA will try to organize in the place of ALPA but by then enough East Pilots (moderates who want to hold onto their job) will vote USAPA down. 99% of the West would never vote for USAPA (we’ll have a Looney 1% or so that think ALPA is the root of all evil). We may enter a quagmire where an ALPA re-certification try also fails. At any end, there is one winner. Management. What the East guys can’t see is that Management wins. All Airline Management. Delayed contracts, delayed increased compensation, delayed better work rules. Management wins. If the East guys drag it out long enough, the next recession will hit and then it is too late. We’d like to pay you more but no can’t afford it. Management bonuses (already paid). Parker will make a business decision: either let the situation roll, cheaper to fly 2/3 of the company on crappy East contract, or if costs over there go up, move aircraft West, hire on the West, and blame illegal union action out East (to be settled in court 10 years from now).

We are into the abyss Gentlemen. Be sure to bring a floatation device.
__________________

Sums it up. And definitely worth restating.

 

[SSDD]

If/when there is a vote for representation, will that include the AWA pilots, or just US? What about after a merger, which union will represent the whole group? USAPA, or will they be going back to ALPA?

Just curious.

 

[TWA Dude]

TWA Dude Can you explain your last sentence regarding the inability of USAirways to survive the loss of ALPA?

I was being a bit dramatic but If USAPA actually wins, the ensuing war could push Parker over the edge to break-up the airline to the disadvantage of all of us.

If/when there is a vote for representation, will that include the AWA pilots, or just US?

Both sides.

What about after a merger, which union will represent the whole group?

Usually the bigger group wins since a representational election would be a forgone conclusion.

 

[BoilerUP]

Anybody a decade or two older than me want to describe how this is really different (other than scale) from ARW vs. MVA?

ARW ended up in receivership with a trustee, did it not?

 

[A350]

It is the same deal...however, the East may have enough votes to decertify ALPA. Receivership or not. The chest thumping of National, and the fact that most of the East guys have seen their career evaporate will latch onto anything that they see as protecting what they have.....

ALPA hasn't protected them. Whether you blame the MEC or National, the union as it exists has policies that have not helped.

It will be a wild ride.

A350

 

[PCL_128]

the fact that most of the East guys have seen their career evaporate will latch onto anything that they see as protecting what they have.....

The over 500 widebody pilots that were put onto the top of the new list certainly didn't see their career evaporate as a result of this ruling. You think you're going to get them to vote to decertify and risk losing the seniority that Nic handed them? Fat chance. Some of them might talk a big game to appease the chest-thumpers, but they won't vote to decert. They'll quietly go on about their business and let the USAPA clowns make fools of themselves until this decert drive falls to the wayside. What a bunch of immature bulls^%$.

ALPA hasn't protected them. Whether you blame the MEC or National, the union as it exists has policies that have not helped.

The union can't protect pilots from their own stupidity. Your reps didn't represent you adequately, and worse yet, the line pilots didn't demand for them to. The rank and file let them go about their silly little DOH jihad and even encouraged them in the process. Going to arbitration was huge blunder number one, and refusing to back off of the DOH mantra perpetuated the stupidity. Sorry, but ALPA can't protect pilots from their own ignorance and stupidity.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Prater's job at this point is to protect the Association from the stupidity of a few.

All it will take is a few pilots at AAA to sue ALPA over DFR issues if Prater doesn't make the AAA do what they are obligated to do. Then we all pay.

 

[A350]

PCL:

Those 500 widebody pilots, although they are still on the top of the list belong there because they are flying widebody equipment that AWA didn't have and didn't bring to the table.

80 or so of them are on medical. The rest are 58 or older with few excepetions. In two years, they are gone. Two years after that AWA pilots will own the A330 seats. If age 65 hits, they own it in 18 months. They took 60% paycuts and lost a hard earned pension. Hardly some windfall. They have nothing to lose either.

Further, after seeing them speak on other boards, they are firmly on the side of their brother and sister pilots who will see the worst of this. The decert drive may fail, and if it does, IMO it will be because the East won't have enough of the furloughed pilots returning and therefore be eligible to vote. If all 1800 of the furloughed East pilots voted, it would cancel out the whole West group. Add to that 1000 or so disenfranchised East pilots and you have a successful decert drive that must go to a vote.

So is Prater asking the USAir East MEC to represent National ALPA or USAir East ALPA?

A350

 

[reepicheep]

PCL:

Those 500 widebody pilots, although they are still on the top of the list belong there because they are flying widebody equipment that AWA didn't have and didn't bring to the table.

80 or so of them are on medical. The rest are 58 or older with few excepetions. In two years, they are gone. Two years after that AWA pilots will own the A330 seats. If age 65 hits, they own it in 18 months.

A350

This sounds a bit pessimistic. Even after the 500 are gone the next in line are not all AWA. And the west coast folks cherish their lifestyle...few are going to sell out and move to Pennsylvania, let alone undertake a 2,000 mile commute.

Of course history could repeat itself; if the company starts to lose money the west will likely be the first place to see significant cuts, which will result in a flood of AWA pilots invading eastern domiciles.

 

[TWA Dude]

So is Prater asking the USAir East MEC to represent National ALPA or USAir East ALPA?

Neither. Whether the AAA MEC is truly representing the East pilots is an internal issue. Prater is demanding, as he has no choice but to do, that the East MEC follow ALPA rules and policies. Just think how much fun you'll have if USAPA doesn't win...

 

[Occam's Razor]

So is Prater asking the USAir East MEC to represent National ALPA or USAir East ALPA?

"represent"?

The pilots who elected them. Elected them in accordance with the Constitution & ByLaws of the Association. They were elected within those rules, and they must execute their representation of their pilots within those rules.

Ain't hard. Done it myself.

If they can't represent their pilots within the rules*, they need to

a. Change the rules, or
b. resign.

One of the rules is they take no actions contrary to the best interests of the membership of the Association. If they support USAPA they are acting contrary to the interests of the ALPA membership.

It ain't rocket surgery.

* The specific rules, and/or the reasons they oppose them are not the issue!

 

[BoilerUP]

Two years after that AWA pilots will own the A330 seats.

Do East pilots really fear that AWA pilots, many of whom live out west, are going to move or commute en masse to PHL just to fly the 330/340?

 

[A350]

What do you think.....

I watched the PSA pilots. Every one of them ended up commuting 2000 miles. Many of the top 500 are ex west coast based PSA pilots. If there ever is a downsize on the west coast, they WILL come east. If the pay ever gets better, I bet a lot of them come east.

Occam: The association is asking the MEC to support the policies/desires of ALPA National. While the debate rages, I dare say the policies/desires of ALPA National are in direct opposition to the needs of the USAir East group.

How can the USAir East MEC put our complimentary information about this seniority integration to the company when it destroys the careers of their constituents? This is just another glaring example of ALPA not being set up to represent the pilots that pay dues.

While there are always going to be situations where a particular issue affects all pilots equally, some hurt one group and benefit others. How can ALPA represent them equally? ALPA is set up so individual MEC's do what benefits them and their constituents. Now are you telling me that the East MEC has to abandon their duty to represent the East pilots to the benefit of the West?

A350

 

[TWA Dude]

While there are always going to be situations where a particular issue affects all pilots equally, some hurt one group and benefit others. How can ALPA represent them equally?

This is a good question and one that I've brought up before. ALPA pilots at different carriers are in competition with each other and there's simply no way for a national organization to reconcile this other than by going to a single, national seniority list. For many obvious reasons that won't be happening anytime soon. Be that as it may, it's irrelevent to the issues at hand.

Now are you telling me that the East MEC has to abandon their duty to represent the East pilots to the benefit of the West?

All I am saying is that the East MEC must follow the rules. They can gripe all they like about how unfair they perceive Nicolau's decision but they are not allowed to fight it.

 

[A350]

TWAdude:

So they must forsake their membership in favor of another group?

A350

 

[PCL_128]

So is Prater asking the USAir East MEC to represent National ALPA or USAir East ALPA?

Occam says "neither," but I would actually say both. The interests of the overall Association are in line with the best interests of the AAA pilots. They don't have to choose between one or the other, because the overall objectives should be one and the same. The best interests of the East pilots, whether your MEC is smart enough to realize it or not, is to move ahead with the JNC to achieve contract improvements for the combined group. Dwelling on this arbitration and USAPA nonsense is most certainly not in the best interests of the East pilots, or anyone else for that matter.

 

[cactusboy53]

Spud; My bad. I simply copied & pasted. That is the letter sent according to our communications info.
Regards.

 

[regionaltard]

...ALPA hasn't protected them.......

Can you explain what you believe ALPA's duty to protect them from themselves was?

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

A350 said:

What do you think.....

I watched the PSA pilots. Every one of them ended up commuting 2000 miles. Many of the top 500 are ex west coast based PSA pilots. If there ever is a downsize on the west coast, they WILL come east. If the pay ever gets better, I bet a lot of them come east.

350, that's retarded.

Where else were the PSA guys gonna go after USAir's incompetent mgr's closed the west down as a base? Of course they commuted.

Standard Eastie... see what you wanna see instead of the truth of the situation.

 

[PinnacleDude]

TWAdude:

So they must forsake their membership in favor of another group?

A350

What is obvious to me, an ALPA member from another carrier, is that the AAA MEC did not do a good job of representing their pilots in the first place. I think the vast majority of the pilots who are not at either East or West, who have taken the time to actually look into this, would agree: the AAA pilots would not be in this position had their MEC done a good job in the first place. I feel very bad for all of the AAA pilots who were let down by the poor decision making of the AAA MEC. Unfortunately, many AAA pilots are so obsessed with their situation that they cannot see the forrest through the trees. Leaving ALPA will cost you money and the rest of us money too.

Again, I feel bad for the East pilots, but the East MEC agreed to rules of the game and as such should abide by the results.

 

[TWA Dude]

TWAdude:

So they must forsake their membership in favor of another group?

A350

Which part of this didn't you understand? "All I am saying is that the East MEC must follow the rules. They can gripe all they like about how unfair they perceive Nicolau's decision but they are not allowed to fight it."

Doing what policy requires is not forsaking the membership. It's simply doing what's required.

 

[A350]

Grog:

Are you reading impaired?

Re-read the post.

The East MEC is following the rules.....just because they aren't out picketing the houses of the USAPA members, Prater thinks they aren't doing their jobs.

I say, just the fact that they are still ALPA members, in good standing, and fighting for their membership, infers they want ALPA to stay. The only problem is the membership obviously disagrees.

A350

 

[PositiveRate]

Marty you are out of your mind.

The East is in material breach of the Transition Agreement.

Now is the time when the child is told what to do. The tantrum is ending and it isn't going to be pretty. You guys are so unilaterally focused on your loss, your sacrifice, your pay, your longevity (not seniority...that's your place on a list), and your anger that you are in danger of ruining this airline and thousands of your union brother's chances at raising the industry standard through collective bargaining.

It's pathetic and you are about to be called out in a major way. USAPA will right the wrongs in your world? Don't think so! How much money have you sent to them to pay for lawyers? Signing a card is one thing, but refusing a large payraise and forking out your own cash to make a "statement"...it's not going to happen.

Even though you tell your lies so much you start to believe them, it doesn't change the realities and it NEVER will.

 

[PositiveRate]

Just a couple more thoughts....

The East MEC has withdrawn it's JNC and refuses to bargain in good faith.

East MEC members have inferred support for USAPA when they are tasked with defending and supporting ALPA.

The East is intentionally delaying the process to ensure maximum opportunity for their junior pilots. This willful (bordeline gleeful) desire to get yours and only yours is beyond pathetic...

East furloughees are receiving upgrade awards to the E190 while junior West has seen nothing but stagnation since the merger announcement - yet they have the gall to say we are the windfall recipients in all this.

 

[John Pennekamp]

And the funny part of all of this is that AAA is hiring. What idiot would sign on to become a part of this mess?!!!

 

[Occam's Razor]

Occam: The association is asking the MEC to support the policies/desires of ALPA National. While the debate rages, I dare say the policies/desires of ALPA National are in direct opposition to the needs of the USAir East group.

Wrong! The Association is DEMANDING that the AAA MEC support the policies! They are doing so because each and every rep who was elected under the rules of the Association agreed to comply with the rules of the Association. Those are the "policies" you mention. "Desires" are something you've added to muddy the discussion, and are not an element of this issue.

How can the USAir East MEC put our complimentary information about this seniority integration to the company when it destroys the careers of their constituents?

They can't. The issue is settled. The Award has been presented. Need an analogy? OJ is a murdering scumbag...yet a jury found him not guilty. Therefore, he is not in prison. Clearly an unfair decision. All of us must live with that unfair decision regardless of how much it angers us.

While there are always going to be situations where a particular issue affects all pilots equally, some hurt one group and benefit others. How can ALPA represent them equally? ALPA is set up so individual MEC's do what benefits them and their constituents. Now are you telling me that the East MEC has to abandon their duty to represent the East pilots to the benefit of the West?

You're glossing over some fundamental truths.

1. ALPA is you. YOU...not me...elected the guys who made the decisions that led to the Award.

2. Equality of representation means the resources are equal. How a single group chooses to USE those resources sometimes results in a disparity of results. It's one of risks inherent in a system of self-governance.

3. This is not an issue of the AAA MEC having to take action on this matter. The time for that is passed. The Award is done. The train has left the station. Efforts to undo the Award do not serve the AAA pilots well at this point.

 

[olympus593]

Dear Jack You are a jackass!!!

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

And the funny part of all of this is that AAA is hiring. What idiot would sign on to become a part of this mess?!!!

There is no mess from a newhire perspective.
- Seniority... they're on the bottom. Just like any airline.
- Equipment... East or West. East possibly 190 but with the attrition our east brothers are having. They will be on bigger stuff in one year, or they might even get something bigger right now. West, Airbus and a non BK contract.
- Future... eventually this will be resolved. There will be a new contract and things will shake out.

Looking around at the regionals these days, I wouldn't hesitate to come to USAirways. The newhires don't have a dog in the fight, its a strictly east vs west thing