A CFI Venting

[JetPilot500]

poorFITgrad'02,

I've been there and I understand your pain. But, you should have known what you were getting yourself into. You should have known there would be long hours and low pay. If you knew this ahead of time, then there should be nothing to complain about.

Complaining is not a healthy option. Action is much better! Here are your choices:

1. Accept your situation as it is.
2. Take action to improve your situation.
3. Quit and do something else.

Personally I think option 2 is the best one, but that is just me.

For example, Lobby (not complain) together with the other CFI's for improved conditions. Come up with a plan as to why you should charge for all of your time. Show your boss how you will work hard with your students to make every minute with your students worth every penny you charge. It is a give and take, you can't just demand more money. You have to give more to your boss and your student to justify your additional money.

When the wx is bad, get your students in for some ground school or simulator, there is always something to do.

I used to run a flight school. I had one of my CFI's who was billing about 150 hours a month with his students, and he made every minute with those students count. Keep in mind, this is in Chicago where the flying wx is only good about 1/2 the time. He didn't BS with his students about last nights game. He worked between 5-6 days per week and 8-10 hour days were typical for him. This CFI was efficient and effective, and students were more than willing to pay for that. We charged $36/hour and we paid $18/hour to our CFI's...he made over $30,000/year. I also gave a $100 per month bonus to the CFI that flew the most hours.

This CFI never complained, he just worked! The guys who complained were the ineffective CFI's who were billing under 50 hours/month making under $10,000 per year.

It is all what you make of it. When life gives you lemons, make lemonaide.

Good Luck,
JetPilot500

 

[Timebuilder]

I too, am a closet idealist. Maybe it's because Bobby and I come from a similar background. It's also probably why I had a political paradigm shift, but that's a part of another thread, isn't it?

In order for there to be a shift in the state of the lifestyles of young flight instructors, a number of inputs in the supply and demand equation would have to change. Since the major airline "dream job" is still a fixture in many minds, we will have an oversupply of flight instructors, which will drive down compensation. This is the same reason that regoinal FO's are on food stamps. Is it "right"? Maybe not. How would it change? Young flight instructors would have to unite in some manner, as mentioned above, and refuse to work under those conditions. Just as there are always "scab" pilots who are willing to cross a picket line, those instructor jobs would be eaten up by eager competitors striving toward the "dream job".

Now, if the "dream job" started to become unattainable for the vast majority of these young instructors, then there would be a backlash in the lower ranks. This means that fewer young people would see flying as a viable career option, and move in a different direction. This is what has hapened in the A&P ranks. The industry is having trouble recruiting mechanics. I wonder why? Is is the cold hangar, the poor pay, or the high level of reponsibility that goes along with the low compensation? Perhaps all of these are the reason.

If fewer young people see the light at the end of the tunnel, then the value of the flight instructor's labor increases, and the compensation will rise to the balance point of supply and demand. Recognizing that the airline industry is in flux will only hinder a few people in choosing aviation as a career. If things are still in a contracting phase over the next ten years, this may change. If you consider how many experienced commercial pilots are not working right now, and how many planes are parked, you can easily see that a large pool of pilots exists right now who can replace those who retire or lose their medicals.

So, for the aspiring pilot, there are conditions to happiness. One, you really do have to enjoy flying enough to be happy when you share it with others. That's what got me through my instructor experience. Two, you have to accept the fact that you must be willing to find happiness outside of a major airline cockpit. If you can't or won't do that, then now is the time to prepare for a different track in your life.

That's the hard reality that we are talking about. If you have the "intestinal fortitude" that we used to talk about at the Academy, and the willingness to happily accept the job where you may find yourself in the longer term, then my friend, this is for you. If not, now is the opportunity to make your exit, and no one will fault you for your reasonable decision.

 

[AOPAPILOT]

We charged $36/hour and we paid $18/hour to our CFI's.

The above quote is part of the problem. Instead of the CFI being paid the $36/hour, the FBO/school keeps the other $18. What is the reason for the $18 going to the FBO/school? Don't tell me it's for administration costs. They do not charge this when you just rent the aircraft solo.

 

[davessn763]

don't settle for $7/hr

FIT,
I also instructed for $7/hr at a central FL pilot factory. After being hired several instuctors decided they were worth more. We asked the company president to our monthly meeting where she faced the entire group of instructors who demanded to be paid more. We got $10/hr the next paycheck.

You are worth more and your school can certainly pay you more. Remember that your school would go out of business if you didn't work there, they don't want that.

I am not saying be confrontational or anything but there is strength in numbers. Do not be afraid of getting fired or disciplined because everyone working with you feels the same.
I believe ERAU instructors did the same thing several years ago.

Its ok to vent here and we have all been there. There have been some great suggestions on supplementing your income on this thread and I would pursue these.

Last but not least, addressing your concern about the quality of instruction at the U.S. flight schools, I must say that the best instructor I've had and the worst were from the pilot farm I worked at and they were both paid the same rate. The quality of flight instruction is completely independant of economics. The best flight instructors are the people that love it. The time builders and others who dislike or are afraid to instruct that do are doing a great harm to their students and aviation in general. If you know anyone like that, please tell them to get out of instructing. If you cannot or do not want to instruct you have no future in any multi crew aircraft.

And don't let Avbug's dinging on young guys discourage you. He's just jealous cause you have your whole career in front of you and his, although distinguished, is almost behind him.

 

[Pilot877]

If youre talking about a certain airline academy in central FL, the Broward instructors were making 10 bucks an hour long before their central-FL based counterparts because thats what (4-year aviation university) was paying the CFI's there before (airline X academy) came in and got the flight training contract at Broward. The instructors would not let (airline X academy) come in and make them work for less.

Yes, due to the difference in cost of living, (4 year aviation college) paid Broward instructors more than their counterparts at (main 4 year aviation college), but the instructors at (main 4 year aviation college) hardly knew Broward existed anyway.

Then (airline X academy) made it a big "secret" and threatened termination if the word leaked out that Broward made more money. When word got out, (airline academy X) had to pay its main base CFI's more or risk mutiny.

 

[davessn763]

Even though you were paid more than us, we didn't get our raise until we demanded it as a group, and no one got fired.

 

[Pilot877]

Hey, I'm on your side, I was pointing out a dirty little secret that the same company paid different wages and tried to cover it up.

Its a crime that CFI's are expected to perform under such poor working conditions and get paid less than minimum wage. You guys did the right thing by sticking together as a group and demanding higher pay. Obviously, they couldnt afford to fire all of the instructors. The ones who were threatened were the instructors who were making more $$ the whole time.

Maybe with the current stagnation, CFI's will be around longer and will be able to squeeze more bucks out of the cheap-o flight school managers.

Sure, some people will say "I went through it, and it builds character and you pay your dues".
I was an instructor too, and I think it sucks big time to struggle financially and making new pilots would be a lot easier if that wasnt an issue.

Instructing is and should be a great way to build valuable experience, but substandard pay for working 14 hour days is a bunch of bull. Just because your pappy walked ten miles through the snow barefoot to school doesnt mean everyone else should have to keep doing it forever.

 

[CatYaaak]

Option #1: Sugar Mama

...but if that doesn't work, there are other options.

Yes, most of us have been in your position, but I know that our experience does very little to alleviate the wrench of hard reality that come with basic things like not having a car to get to work. What are your assets? Well, right away your problem tells me that you aren't some kind of trust fund baby living off daddy's money, and that you must REALLY want to make flying your career. That's an asset. Another is that you ARE only trying to support yourself, not a whole family, etc. No mortgage? Great! Take a step back and try to perceive that at this moment, you enjoy the ability to "Go anywhere, Do anything", and low pay gives you an extra nudge to do it. You may never again during the course of your life have this opportunity to change your condition, where the choices you make affect only yourself (yes, it IS an opportunity).

Another reality is that the laws of supply and demand are at work and effecting your current working conditions, and that the trade-off for low pay ($7/hr vs. $12/hr I made back in the mid '80s) comes from working at a pilot factory located in "Fair-weather Flyingland Florida" where students are handed to you and a glut of CFI's exist, with more CFI grads coming down the pipeline. CFI's in FL are a dime-a-dozen, and that isn't going to change. Until recently, you were in that pipeline yourself. He11, I can't throw a brick in a FL bar without hitting at least three of you in the head.

Another factor is that the type of environment you are currently working in represents the safest womb for a CFI: guaranteed student-supply and good flying weather in a place you could ride your bike to work year-round. They provide the airplanes, Mx, and facility, so you can ply your trade. You work at a high name-recognition Training Center with lots of advertising. Your students are mostly driving down the pro pilot career path, motivated, full-time, with money to spend on high-frequency training.

Others continuously check your work and abilities, thereby providing a safety net for yourself and students alike. When you sign-off a logbook, your worries are more likely along the lines of "Will this student pass his progress check?" as opposed to "What do I teach this walk-in Private Pilot stranger during his reveiw today to ensure that he doesn't go out and create a smokin' hole with his family onboard tomorrow?". A Flight Academy doesn't guarantee better instruction, but the curriculum itself, through a system of checks and balances and structured syllabus, spreads out responsiblities to others that outside a Flight Academy would be shouldered completely by the CFI.

Now, you have to ask yourself if those extra dollars you aren't making per/hour at at place like FIT are worth the security of not being provided those things, and perhaps trading in your suntan lotion for a pair of warm gloves instead. Rewards, even small ones, usually don't come without some type of risk.

My philosophical suggestion: I agree that it's a noble undertaking, so treat it as one and consider it a profession unto itself, not just a way to build hours. View teaching the skills and knowledge of flight to others as a chapter in your life. Keep your integrity. Yes, charge students for dedicated, bona-fide ground school, but NEVER charge students for post and pre-flight briefings that come as a normal part of every flight training hour. You owe your students those briefings.

My practical suggestion: Get the he11 out of Dodge. Be willing to relocate and change the scenery of your life (you have no idea how many apiring pilots never realize their goals because of an unwillingness to change their surrounding geography). Buy a phone card, get an airport directory, and begin shopping yourself around by phone. Find out where other grads may have escaped to. Throw darts at a map. If something looks promising, quit your current job for a temp, full-time "anything" to fix your car and head down the road. Take the knowledge and experience you do have somewhere else. You might run across a place that has someone quite recently, or will say "we take on part-time instructors and pay $15/hr, but you have to get your own students". A good local economy means students, and there ARE good local economies out there, even amidst all the gloom and doom of the newpapers.

Any "real world" environment will pay a better wage than a pilot factory womb, because you will have to shoulder far more responsibility, your flying and "human" skills tested to a greater degree, and you will not just be of the crowd. You'll also have a lot more fun.

I hope this helps. Stay positive.

 

[bigD]

I agree with CatYaak - a sugar momma is the way to go. I've been trying to steer my girlfriend towards law school (as are her parents), but she wants to be a kindergarten teacher. DOH!

 

[TriDriver]

Well, I can't add much advice to FIT after all the good ideas ranging from "quit", to "get a sugar mama", to "suck it up and gut it out". I think the best is to remain "positive".

I've done thousands of hours of CFI work, but never as my primary living, but it was certainly with a goal in mind - that of building fixed-wing time for a future job. That's why it's always been fun for me, because I didn't have to rely on it to put food on the table.

When I was in the Army as an infantryman or in a helicopter job, I worked at flying clubs and local FBO's. My wife used to complain about me being gone so much (late at night, weekends) working as a CFI when it was just part-time work. My goal when I got out of the Army was to be prepared for a good corporate job that might need a dual rated pilot.

When I switched over to the Coast Guard, all my civilian CFI time in small fixed-wing aircraft got me a military fixed-wing seat. I flew turboprops and jets and all of a sudden had what I needed for an airline job. So, all the years of instructing nights and weekends paid off big when I got hired by a major. I think the quote is something like: "Luck is when opportunity and preparation come together". Now my wife doesn't complain so much when the paychecks come in.

The point of all this rambling is that your CFI time can pay off really big if you stick with it. Perhaps getting another job and doing the CFI thing part-time will make it fun and take the pressure off needing it to put food on the table.

The other big point I want to make is that, when you get to a place in your flying career where you can coast a little, I hope everybody who is successful in their career try to add a little back into it by doing some instructing later in life. I've read some disparaging remarks on this forum about airling pilots giving flight instruction. If you love flying, and you have a wealth of experience, and you can be a CFI because you want to and not because you need the job to build time and make a living, I think you can be a really great CFI. I hope all of you aspiring airline pilots think about doing some instruction late in your career as a mentor for the next generation of pilots. Many of you know I work for TAB Express, and I find that a really rewarding experience working with the airline pilots of the future. Believe me, it's really fun when you don't have to rely on it for your primary income.

Finally, those of you who are career CFI's have my greatest admiration. Out of all the general aviation/military/airline flying I've done, the thing I'd be happiest to have put on tombstone would be "He taught people to fly". Being a flight instructor has always been the most satisfying flying I've done.

TriDriver Bob

 

[bobbysamd]

Billable hours

Instead of the CFI being paid the $36/hour, the FBO/school keeps the other $18. What is the reason for the $18 going to the FBO/school? Don't tell me it's for administration costs . . . .

I assume for this question that the CFI is an employee of the FBO/school and not an independent contractor.

It is for administration costs. The other $18 goes toward a number of things, such as helping to pay the receptionist. Or, the boss' secretary. The power and phone bill, etc. Insurance.

If this example helps, many lawfirms operate the same way. Attorneys and paralegals are billers. They are expected to bill a certain number of hours per month. Billers in my last firm had to bill thirty hours a week. That works out to six hours a day, or 120 hours a month. It sounds like a lot, but we had it easy compared to other firms, where billers were expected to bill 150-180 hours a month.

Paralegals in my firm were billed out as high as $90 per hour. However, we received only about $14 an hour from that. So, where did the other $76 go? Our principal shareholder always explained how that money went to pay the staff and other overhead. Of course, she got a piece of the action as well. If we weren't billing our minimums, we got little love notes about billing more, and lectures at review time and at other times. These were not pleasant conversations, by the way.

After receiving these exhortations, we became creative with our billing. We didn't pad our hours (at least I didn't), but we came up with ways to bill time legitimately.

Flight instructors are also billers. I don't want to repeat what's been written, but there are ways that instructors can bill time legitimately when they can't fly. They can conduct orals (briefings) on any number of subjects. Airspace and charts are always good. They can conduct sims. In fact, at Riddle, we were encouraged to sim problem instrument students instead of flying them. Yes, it wasn't flight time but was still contact time, i.e. billable hours.

You can earn money without necessarily having to fly if you're the least bit creative. Of course, all this assumes that your company will let you bill for ground time and sims. It should - it means more time for the company, too.

 

[Pilot877]

Well, I can't add much advice to FIT after all the good ideas ranging from "quit", to "get a sugar mama", to "suck it up and gut it out". I think the best is to remain "positive".


There ya go, thats the best advice of all!

 

[AOPAPILOT]

For Bobbysamd

You missed my point about the extra $18 that FBO's/Schools charge for dual. I think the extra $18 is pure profit. They do not charge you the extra $$ when you fly solo. The plane rent remains the same, it is the dual $$ that is in question and the flight instructor does not get it all. The next thing they will do is put in pay phones for the weather brief, pay toilets, paid parking, paper work billing fee and so on and so on. Sounds like they are taking a clue from the law profession. Yes GA flying is expensive, it is only going to get worse.

 

[bobbysamd]

Extra profit

No, I didn't miss anything about the $18/hour extra. Also, I doubt that FBO and school operators are taking clues from the legal profession.

I believe the principle is the same - that dual instruction is an FBO profit center, with the extra $18 covering overhead - just as the $76/hour my lawfirm made off paralegals after paying them(supposedly) went for other things. What would be the point of an FBO offering dual instruction if it couldn't make money off it? Once again, assuming that instructors are FBO employees.

I realize that the cost of aircraft rental remains the same, no matter if it is dual or solo, but aircraft rental is altogether a separate FBO profit center. I doubt that FBOs lose money if they rent out a 172 for $65/hour, which is about the going rate here in Denver. There's profit built in that, too, that also covers overhead. In other words, if you're taking dual instruction at an FBO from one of its instructors, it is making money off you two ways - from its dual rate and its rental rate.

One more example. I made $15/hour as an instructor at MAPD. The place used to quote a per-hour rate on its aircraft in its literature. I don't remember what that was, but I assure you it was far more than the $15/hour I was paid. Same principle as an FBO, aside from the fact that Mesa Airlines knew well how to make money.

Sure, GA flying is getting expensive. Twenty years ago, dual cost me $40/hour - $35/hour for the 172 and $15/hour for my instructor, who also owned the airplane. It has more than doubled during that time. Completely understandable - because everything else has gone up in price during that time.

 

[RedheadCFI]

OH MY GOSH, QUIT YOUR COMPLAINING!

You are pursuing a 6 figure job, I'm sorry that you have to put in your time for awhile. I am a part time cfi right now making $120 a week BEFORE taxes. You know what it sucks, cause I am capped there. I can't make anymore or less but its the only flight school for about 50 miles and definately the only one that will fit my schedule. Not to mention that I have enough bills coming in from paying tuition and what not I'm always running in the red. Dude, I drive a POS cavalier that doesn't run right half the time. And you know I'm happier than a pig in shi*t because I know down the road I'll be making plenty of money and I'll be able to look back at all this and laugh. So, for now the hardest decision is do I buy lunch and dinner tonight or spend my $10 at the bar. I think every airline pilot has been in our shoes, it sucks but make the best of it.
-Nick

 

[dmspilot00]

OH MY GOSH, QUIT BRINGING 6 MONTH OLD THREADS TO THE TOP JUST SO YOU CAN CRITICIZE SOMEBODY!

Sorry, I just don't want anyone to think this is a new thread. You are entitled to your opinion (I even agree with it) but it is extremely irritating when people bring to the surface threads this old.

 

[Ben Dover]

PoorFITgrad,

Here's some advise I got from a Clay Lacey FO when I was working on my ratings. "Just enjoy WHAT you're doing WHEN you're doing it. Don't get in such a rush to get on with the airlines that you stop enjoying flying."

PS if you think the money is bad instructing, my last check at the regionals was $0, no lie. After health care deductions, taxes, and some deductions for a couple passes for my folks, I got a check in my box for $0. If you're doing it for the money you will always be unhappy.

 

[Dr4uh60l]

When I was an instructor, I drove 2 1/2 hours to get to the airport on Thursday morning and drove 2 1/2 hours home on Sunday night. I slept on my old Army cot in the office (fortunately we also had a shower there too). I was in the Army for 12 years and went from a Sergeant First Class to a no-time flight instructor. This was about a $30,000/year cut in pay and benefits, but I've never been happier. I know that it could always be worse!!!

Redhead CFI: I recognize that exit sign--I grew up in Asheville. I live in Sylva now and drove all the way to Atlanta to instruct.

Good luck!

PS. I'm still sleeping on my cot but now I'm flying Part 135 cargo and I'm 4 1/2 hours from home, making $10/hour. Sure am glad my wife understands the sacrifices we make now will pay off later!

 

[wil]

Redhead CFI- Took the same pic! Flew freight out of AVL, great town!

 

[Cardinal]

I'm happier than a pig in shi*t

That's wonderful, really. But your perspective may have jaundiced after another 1000 dual given, without an "end" in sight. And just as a bit of fact-checking he's making $16/hour, not 7, and it's not at FIT, it's at a part 61 operation. Tell me, have your collateral duties ever included the need to promote your place of employment at the county fair, in the rain? He clearly identified this thread as a "vent," and he gets bitc# slapped for it. Where's the love?

Incidentally poorFITgrad has since secured a slot flying night-freight in a twin Cessna.