A CFI Venting

[bobbysamd]

Billable hours

Instead of the CFI being paid the $36/hour, the FBO/school keeps the other $18. What is the reason for the $18 going to the FBO/school? Don't tell me it's for administration costs . . . .

I assume for this question that the CFI is an employee of the FBO/school and not an independent contractor.

It is for administration costs. The other $18 goes toward a number of things, such as helping to pay the receptionist. Or, the boss' secretary. The power and phone bill, etc. Insurance.

If this example helps, many lawfirms operate the same way. Attorneys and paralegals are billers. They are expected to bill a certain number of hours per month. Billers in my last firm had to bill thirty hours a week. That works out to six hours a day, or 120 hours a month. It sounds like a lot, but we had it easy compared to other firms, where billers were expected to bill 150-180 hours a month.

Paralegals in my firm were billed out as high as $90 per hour. However, we received only about $14 an hour from that. So, where did the other $76 go? Our principal shareholder always explained how that money went to pay the staff and other overhead. Of course, she got a piece of the action as well. If we weren't billing our minimums, we got little love notes about billing more, and lectures at review time and at other times. These were not pleasant conversations, by the way.

After receiving these exhortations, we became creative with our billing. We didn't pad our hours (at least I didn't), but we came up with ways to bill time legitimately.

Flight instructors are also billers. I don't want to repeat what's been written, but there are ways that instructors can bill time legitimately when they can't fly. They can conduct orals (briefings) on any number of subjects. Airspace and charts are always good. They can conduct sims. In fact, at Riddle, we were encouraged to sim problem instrument students instead of flying them. Yes, it wasn't flight time but was still contact time, i.e. billable hours.

You can earn money without necessarily having to fly if you're the least bit creative. Of course, all this assumes that your company will let you bill for ground time and sims. It should - it means more time for the company, too.

 

[Pilot877]

Well, I can't add much advice to FIT after all the good ideas ranging from "quit", to "get a sugar mama", to "suck it up and gut it out". I think the best is to remain "positive".


There ya go, thats the best advice of all!

 

[AOPAPILOT]

For Bobbysamd

You missed my point about the extra $18 that FBO's/Schools charge for dual. I think the extra $18 is pure profit. They do not charge you the extra $$ when you fly solo. The plane rent remains the same, it is the dual $$ that is in question and the flight instructor does not get it all. The next thing they will do is put in pay phones for the weather brief, pay toilets, paid parking, paper work billing fee and so on and so on. Sounds like they are taking a clue from the law profession. Yes GA flying is expensive, it is only going to get worse.

 

[bobbysamd]

Extra profit

No, I didn't miss anything about the $18/hour extra. Also, I doubt that FBO and school operators are taking clues from the legal profession.

I believe the principle is the same - that dual instruction is an FBO profit center, with the extra $18 covering overhead - just as the $76/hour my lawfirm made off paralegals after paying them(supposedly) went for other things. What would be the point of an FBO offering dual instruction if it couldn't make money off it? Once again, assuming that instructors are FBO employees.

I realize that the cost of aircraft rental remains the same, no matter if it is dual or solo, but aircraft rental is altogether a separate FBO profit center. I doubt that FBOs lose money if they rent out a 172 for $65/hour, which is about the going rate here in Denver. There's profit built in that, too, that also covers overhead. In other words, if you're taking dual instruction at an FBO from one of its instructors, it is making money off you two ways - from its dual rate and its rental rate.

One more example. I made $15/hour as an instructor at MAPD. The place used to quote a per-hour rate on its aircraft in its literature. I don't remember what that was, but I assure you it was far more than the $15/hour I was paid. Same principle as an FBO, aside from the fact that Mesa Airlines knew well how to make money.

Sure, GA flying is getting expensive. Twenty years ago, dual cost me $40/hour - $35/hour for the 172 and $15/hour for my instructor, who also owned the airplane. It has more than doubled during that time. Completely understandable - because everything else has gone up in price during that time.

 

[RedheadCFI]

OH MY GOSH, QUIT YOUR COMPLAINING!

You are pursuing a 6 figure job, I'm sorry that you have to put in your time for awhile. I am a part time cfi right now making $120 a week BEFORE taxes. You know what it sucks, cause I am capped there. I can't make anymore or less but its the only flight school for about 50 miles and definately the only one that will fit my schedule. Not to mention that I have enough bills coming in from paying tuition and what not I'm always running in the red. Dude, I drive a POS cavalier that doesn't run right half the time. And you know I'm happier than a pig in shi*t because I know down the road I'll be making plenty of money and I'll be able to look back at all this and laugh. So, for now the hardest decision is do I buy lunch and dinner tonight or spend my $10 at the bar. I think every airline pilot has been in our shoes, it sucks but make the best of it.
-Nick

 

[dmspilot00]

OH MY GOSH, QUIT BRINGING 6 MONTH OLD THREADS TO THE TOP JUST SO YOU CAN CRITICIZE SOMEBODY!

Sorry, I just don't want anyone to think this is a new thread. You are entitled to your opinion (I even agree with it) but it is extremely irritating when people bring to the surface threads this old.

 

[Ben Dover]

PoorFITgrad,

Here's some advise I got from a Clay Lacey FO when I was working on my ratings. "Just enjoy WHAT you're doing WHEN you're doing it. Don't get in such a rush to get on with the airlines that you stop enjoying flying."

PS if you think the money is bad instructing, my last check at the regionals was $0, no lie. After health care deductions, taxes, and some deductions for a couple passes for my folks, I got a check in my box for $0. If you're doing it for the money you will always be unhappy.

 

[Dr4uh60l]

When I was an instructor, I drove 2 1/2 hours to get to the airport on Thursday morning and drove 2 1/2 hours home on Sunday night. I slept on my old Army cot in the office (fortunately we also had a shower there too). I was in the Army for 12 years and went from a Sergeant First Class to a no-time flight instructor. This was about a $30,000/year cut in pay and benefits, but I've never been happier. I know that it could always be worse!!!

Redhead CFI: I recognize that exit sign--I grew up in Asheville. I live in Sylva now and drove all the way to Atlanta to instruct.

Good luck!

PS. I'm still sleeping on my cot but now I'm flying Part 135 cargo and I'm 4 1/2 hours from home, making $10/hour. Sure am glad my wife understands the sacrifices we make now will pay off later!

 

[wil]

Redhead CFI- Took the same pic! Flew freight out of AVL, great town!

 

[Cardinal]

I'm happier than a pig in shi*t

That's wonderful, really. But your perspective may have jaundiced after another 1000 dual given, without an "end" in sight. And just as a bit of fact-checking he's making $16/hour, not 7, and it's not at FIT, it's at a part 61 operation. Tell me, have your collateral duties ever included the need to promote your place of employment at the county fair, in the rain? He clearly identified this thread as a "vent," and he gets bitc# slapped for it. Where's the love?

Incidentally poorFITgrad has since secured a slot flying night-freight in a twin Cessna.

 

[avbug]

I think the point is that we have all been there. My duties included towing airplanes through parades, sitting in the rain at the county fair, taking an airplane apart and reassembling it inside a mall while trying to recruit students. Towing banners, working on airplanes in cold hangars without heat in the winter, doing the books, working the counter, providing instruction, giving scenic flights, teaching ground schools, doing local merit badges, all sorts of public relations things...all a part of that lowly instructing job. And I did love it. And...I was grateful for it.

We've all been there, all done that. I believe the point was, and most agreed, he wasn't the first, won't be the last, and it's nothing new under the sun. I'm glad he's secured other employment, in accordance with his wishes.

 

[JediNein]

Let's see, what does the FBO do with their $18 per hour take:
Pay Worker's Comp Insurance: $6-10 per hour billed, if they were lucky and got cheap coverage.
Pay Liability Insurance $2-3 per hour
Cover losses from the beapilot program ($15-30 an hour)
Any benefits must come out of this amount.
Pay FUTA, SSA, and other employment taxes. Then corporate/business taxes. Then state taxes. And city business taxes. (33% of revenues)

Pay administrative costs ~ $1600-2000 per month for a clerk to do the paperwork
Keep the office lights on: ~$400-500 per month
Keep the phones on: $200 per month
Keep an online scheduling service: $55-120 per month
Keep the company manuals in print: $100 per month
Keep the instructors in internet access: $65 per month (dial up is per minute charge -- BAD!)
Keep the restrooms stocked and clean: $10 per month
Office equipment, mailing statements, pursuing dead beats, rewarding new certificates, and all of that adds up.

Then there are such things as paying the company owner.

Finally, making a profit. After all, that's what we're in business for.

Don't ask about a flight school that owns/operates aircraft, too. It's gonna take a year for that twitch to go away.

Don't forget the therapy costs for when one of the pilots calls to say the engine quit on the airplane, and ATC calls to say that is the third engine failure of that airplane in a week... would we please fix the d*mn airplane.


Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[Typhoon1244]

...towing airplanes through parades...

Congratulations! You just posted the worst aviation job I've ever heard of!

 

[Q200_FO]

You're preachin' to the chior bub...

Been there done that exactly a year ago. I had to get a second job and cut instructing down to part time cause there wasn't enough students. Do what you gotta do to pay the bills. I did.

 

[poorFITgrad'02]

Update

Hey all,

I figured it was only fair to update this thread. After the 3rd or 4th verbal kick in the arse for me to quit my b*tchin', I stopped looking at the mess I created. Now, months later I see it got rated 5 stars!!!!

Anyways, I am now a 135 freight dog building 5 hours of multi time a night, single pilot, PIC in the lovely northeast weather (2 ILS's a night for the first 13 days of May).

To all the CFI's out there who put in a full days, weeks, months, and years work only to seem to keep spinning in the mudd, keep grinding away. Things do open up. Sometimes its luck, sometimes its timing, sometimes its who you know, but thats what aviation is about.

Part of me misses working days anyways, haha.

 

[JimNtexas]

Re: Update

Hey all,

I figured it was only fair to update this thread. After the 3rd or 4th verbal kick in the arse for me to quit my b*tchin', I stopped looking at the mess I created. Now, months later I see it got rated 5 stars!!!!

Anyways, I am now a 135 freight dog building 5 hours of multi time a night, single pilot, PIC in the lovely northeast weather (2 ILS's a night for the first 13 days of May).
....

That's all well and good, but did your car ever finally break in two?

Congraduations.

 

[bobbysamd]

Now what were we telling you?

Anyways, I am now a 135 freight dog building 5 hours of multi time a night, single pilot, PIC in the lovely northeast weather (2 ILS's a night for the first 13 days of May).

See??? Told ya it would work out, if you follow the old adage: "All things cometh to he who waiteth (while he worketh like HELL while he waiteth)."

At the rate you're going you will build a ton of multi within months.

Now, aren't you glad you stuck it out?

Do yourself a favor and get your ATP, now that you're nice and instrument current.

Good luck with the rest of your plans.